Another new Brexit thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ric
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I mean this is totally obvious and I’m not sure why people don’t understand it.

Most MP’s have voted for at least one version of how we should leave and triggering Article 50 easily passed through Parliament.

If it was as straight forward as “just getting on with it”, we’d have already done it.

Yep - if you apply that logic to May's deal then you would sign up to it. We keep getting told that NI border issues are easily solved so why let that hold you back.

The answer is that we all know there is no solution to NI/ROI and therefore Mays deal is semi permanent. But lets be clear No Deal is not a solution to NI/ROI it is a massive problem that would lead to the break up of the Union. The simple solution is that NI alligns itself with ROI and outside of the UK, that then tips Scotland over the balance as they don't want to leave the EU either. Add this mess on top of the economic damage that is widely accepted and Brexit is a rank awful mess. This is not what was on offer in 2016.
 
You're making the same mistakes here as others these days do with politics. Pigeonholing a stance and viewpoint as being one for negative approaches and one for positive.

Conservatives can be liberal also and fight for the same standards you hold important. Conservatives are not your enemy, selfish people are.


I see what you did there.... tried to distance 'Conservatives' from 'Selfish People' ..... not a bad effort but it doesn't quite work.
 
Yep - if you apply that logic to May's deal then you would sign up to it. We keep getting told that NI border issues are easily solved so why let that hold you back.

The answer is that we all know there is no solution to NI/ROI and therefore Mays deal is semi permanent. But lets be clear No Deal is not a solution to NI/ROI it is a massive problem that would lead to the break up of the Union. The simple solution is that NI alligns itself with ROI and outside of the UK, that then tips Scotland over the balance as they don't want to leave the EU either. Add this mess on top of the economic damage that is widely accepted and Brexit is a rank awful mess. This is not what was on offer in 2016.

No it’s not but we keep being told the above was “happening anyway” - which it wasn’t.

When we eventually go back to the EU, wanting a deal, exactly the same terms will be on the table as there are now.
 
The first referendum should have been advisory only, and the result used to formulate the party policies, not make a huge policy shift. I've always been surprised Cameron hasn't been arrested for dereliction of duty, to be honest.
The first referendum WAS advisory only which was why it wasn't declared null and void by the electoral commission due to a number of irregularities. The fact that both the government and opposition both declared their intention to fully honour the outcome in spite of this is the reason we are where we are.
 
I see what you did there.... tried to distance 'Conservatives' from 'Selfish People' ..... not a bad effort but it doesn't quite work.
Yes.. that's exactly what I was trying to point out, because that sort of discourse, especially in the current climate, isn't helpful. Assuming someone is automatically a selfish person because they hold conservative beliefs. You're creating and fighting an enemy in your own head.
 
The first referendum WAS advisory only which was why it wasn't declared null and void by the electoral commission due to a number of irregularities. The fact that both the government and opposition both declared their intention to fully honour the outcome in spite of this is the reason we are where we are.
Yes, true, I forgot that. My last line becomes even more appropriate.
 
The first referendum WAS advisory only which was why it wasn't declared null and void by the electoral commission due to a number of irregularities. The fact that both the government and opposition both declared their intention to fully honour the outcome in spite of this is the reason we are where we are.

Can you show me evidence that the result would have been set aside?

Hardly an election in this country hasn’t had fines issued for spending breaches and I can’t remember a result being declared null and void over it.

Remain and leave have been found guilty and fined for spending breaches.
 
Yes.. that's exactly what I was trying to point out, because that sort of discourse, especially in the current climate, isn't helpful. Assuming someone is automatically a selfish person because they hold conservative beliefs. You're creating and fighting an enemy in your own head.
It appears my original reply was deleted, but what I was trying to say, in agreement, is it can be dangerous to simply hold a view of someone based on what they belong to, or even what they might say at a certain point in time.

Think I'll duck out of this, this thread seems a bit pointless now.
 
Can you show me evidence that the result would have been set aside?

Hardly an election in this country hasn’t had fines issued for spending breaches and I can’t remember a result being declared null and void over it.

Remain and leave have been found guilty and fined for spending breaches.
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/n...-for-corruption-if-only-it-was-binding/26/02/

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ve-campaign-undermines-brexit-vote-court-told

There's plenty more links if you look for them.
 
Last edited:
It appears my original reply was deleted, but what I was trying to say, in agreement, is it can be dangerous to simply hold a view of someone based on what they belong to, or even what they might say at a certain point in time.

Think I'll duck out of this, this thread seems a bit pointless now.
I thought it might have lasted a bit longer before reverting to type. Nobody is shifting their positions, there's been too much bad blood, too many insults and arguements that people remember, too much anger and vitriol.

The only way a thread like this can continue is if entirely new members meet to discuss the issue. When the same posters congregate on the thread to spout abuse at one another, this just becomes a continuation of the other 3 threads.
 
Yes.. that's exactly what I was trying to point out, because that sort of discourse, especially in the current climate, isn't helpful. Assuming someone is automatically a selfish person because they hold conservative beliefs. You're creating and fighting an enemy in your own head.


By the very definition of Conservatism the party cannot be 'Liberal' or 'Progressive' .... if you vote for the Tories believing that they can be ... you're voting for the wrong party. Their sole purpose is to maintain the status quo with the majority of people poorly educated, poor and in hock all their lives while the wealthy few live the life of riley.

conservatism

[kənˈsəːvətɪz(ə)m]
NOUN
  1. commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation.
    "proponents of theological conservatism"
  2. the holding of political views that favour free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas.
    "a party that espoused conservatism"
    • the doctrines of the Conservative Party of Great Britain or a similar party elsewhere.
      "the thrust of post-war Conservatism"

 
I thought it might have lasted a bit longer before reverting to type. Nobody is shifting their positions, there's been too much bad blood, too many insults and arguements that people remember, too much anger and vitriol.

The only way a thread like this can continue is if entirely new members meet to discuss the issue. When the same posters congregate on the thread to spout abuse at one another, this just becomes a continuation of the other 3 threads.
I shifted mine, but not based on the views of remainers, but the position that Ireland and N Ireland find themselves in. Yes, if those people decided they didn't mind investigating options to resolve the border issue, then there'd likely be a possible route to the UK leaving the EU, but it is evident now that violence is likely even in the most unobtrusive solutions. The for/against split is too close to properly attempt anything that is likely to last, and whilst this is giving in to threats, it is what it is. I looked at the facts and made my own judgements, just like the initial vote. No facebook pressure, no Russians, no lies.

Still think another vote is the most stupid thing to do, whatever options are on there.
 
By the very definition of Conservatism the party cannot be 'Liberal' or 'Progressive' .... if you vote for the Tories believing that they can be ... you're voting for the wrong party. Their sole purpose is to maintain the status quo with the majority of people poorly educated, poor and in hock all their lives while the wealthy few live the life of riley.

conservatism

[kənˈsəːvətɪz(ə)m]
NOUN
  1. commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation.
    "proponents of theological conservatism"
  2. the holding of political views that favour free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas.
    "a party that espoused conservatism"
    • the doctrines of the Conservative Party of Great Britain or a similar party elsewhere.
      "the thrust of post-war Conservatism"
From the wiki page;

Liberal conservatism
is a political ideology combining conservative policies with liberal stances, especially on economic, social and ethical issues, or a brand of political conservatism strongly influenced by liberalism.

Liberal conservatism incorporates the classical liberal view of minimal government intervention in the economy, according to which individuals should be free to participate in the market and generate wealth without government interference. However, liberal conservatism also holds that individuals cannot be thoroughly depended on to act responsibly in other spheres of life, therefore liberal conservatives believe that a strong state is necessary to ensure law and order and social institutions are needed to nurture a sense of duty and responsibility to the nation. They also support civil liberties, along with some social conservative positions. In Europe liberal conservatism is the dominant form of contemporary conservatism and centre-right politics.

Or if you prefer;

Conservative liberalism is a variant of liberalism, combining liberal values and policies with conservative stances, or simply representing the right-wing of the liberal movement. It is a more positive and less radical variant of classical liberalism. Conservative liberal parties tend to combine liberal policies with more traditional stances on social and ethical issues. Neoconservatism has also been identified as an ideological relative or twin to conservative liberalism, and some similarities exist also between conservative liberalism and national liberalism.

In any case, it's clear we aren't going to agree on this, so there's little point in debating it.
 
I’m sure there are all saying the exact same thing.

Fact is a case was brought and dismissed for want of merit.
The fact is that the electoral commission found that the result was affected by illegal practices on the Leave side. That is undeniable.

The subsequent court case case was dismissed on a technicality relating to the non-binding nature of the vote and the leave to appeal was dismissed based on the time limit of 3 months, even though the breaches only came to light after the three months. So there was plenty of merit but too many loopholes.
 
I shifted mine, but not based on the views of remainers, but the position that Ireland and N Ireland find themselves in. Yes, if those people decided they didn't mind investigating options to resolve the border issue, then there'd likely be a possible route to the UK leaving the EU, but it is evident now that violence is likely even in the most unobtrusive solutions. The for/against split is too close to properly attempt anything that is likely to last, and whilst this is giving in to threats, it is what it is. I looked at the facts and made my own judgements, just like the initial vote. No facebook pressure, no Russians, no lies.

Still think another vote is the most stupid thing to do, whatever options are on there.


Agreed..... another vote along the lines of the last one would be futile and only lead to further division .... however a vote on an agreed Deal to leave or Remain might be ok.

Or a General Election
 
I thought it might have lasted a bit longer before reverting to type. Nobody is shifting their positions, there's been too much bad blood, too many insults and arguements that people remember, too much anger and vitriol.

The only way a thread like this can continue is if entirely new members meet to discuss the issue. When the same posters congregate on the thread to spout abuse at one another, this just becomes a continuation of the other 3 threads.

I've shifted my position loads. At the time of the referendum I thought that leaving the EU was a bad idea because it would risk damaging the economy, break up the United Kingdom and remove freedom of movement.

Three years later my opinion has changed massively. I believe that Brexit is an act of unsurpassed stupidity promoted by selfish, manipulative, jingoistic idiots and supported by stubborn, ill-informed fools.

I cannot frame the debate in any other terms because I'm disgusted at the state these people have brought the country to, and terrified for the future of my children. I appreciate that some people don't like being talked to angrily, but sometimes if you hold an opinion like that you have to accept that people feel like that about you. It's a free country and you can believe whatever you want, but when your beliefs fly in the face of all credible evidence and more importantly drag the rest of us (and our families) down with you, then you have to live with the consequences on a rubust, adult forum.
 
From the wiki page;

Liberal conservatism
is a political ideology combining conservative policies with liberal stances, especially on economic, social and ethical issues, or a brand of political conservatism strongly influenced by liberalism.

Liberal conservatism incorporates the classical liberal view of minimal government intervention in the economy, according to which individuals should be free to participate in the market and generate wealth without government interference. However, liberal conservatism also holds that individuals cannot be thoroughly depended on to act responsibly in other spheres of life, therefore liberal conservatives believe that a strong state is necessary to ensure law and order and social institutions are needed to nurture a sense of duty and responsibility to the nation. They also support civil liberties, along with some social conservative positions. In Europe liberal conservatism is the dominant form of contemporary conservatism and centre-right politics.

Or if you prefer;

Conservative liberalism is a variant of liberalism, combining liberal values and policies with conservative stances, or simply representing the right-wing of the liberal movement. It is a more positive and less radical variant of classical liberalism. Conservative liberal parties tend to combine liberal policies with more traditional stances on social and ethical issues. Neoconservatism has also been identified as an ideological relative or twin to conservative liberalism, and some similarities exist also between conservative liberalism and national liberalism.

In any case, it's clear we aren't going to agree on this, so there's little point in debating it.


If you think that the current bunch of nasties currently in power are 'Liberal' in any way whatsoever .........you should seek help
 
From the wiki page;

Liberal conservatism
is a political ideology combining conservative policies with liberal stances, especially on economic, social and ethical issues, or a brand of political conservatism strongly influenced by liberalism.

Liberal conservatism incorporates the classical liberal view of minimal government intervention in the economy, according to which individuals should be free to participate in the market and generate wealth without government interference. However, liberal conservatism also holds that individuals cannot be thoroughly depended on to act responsibly in other spheres of life, therefore liberal conservatives believe that a strong state is necessary to ensure law and order and social institutions are needed to nurture a sense of duty and responsibility to the nation. They also support civil liberties, along with some social conservative positions. In Europe liberal conservatism is the dominant form of contemporary conservatism and centre-right politics.

Or if you prefer;

Conservative liberalism is a variant of liberalism, combining liberal values and policies with conservative stances, or simply representing the right-wing of the liberal movement. It is a more positive and less radical variant of classical liberalism. Conservative liberal parties tend to combine liberal policies with more traditional stances on social and ethical issues. Neoconservatism has also been identified as an ideological relative or twin to conservative liberalism, and some similarities exist also between conservative liberalism and national liberalism.

In any case, it's clear we aren't going to agree on this, so there's little point in debating it.

The definitions you’ve posted aren’t exactly contradictory to the overall one for Conservatism he posted.

-Liberal economic policies
-Authoritarian social policies

Are the background to it and Conservatives around the world display the above in abundance.
 
If you think that the current bunch of nasties currently in power are 'Liberal' in any way whatsoever .........you should seek help
I'm talking about conservatives, not the members of the Conservative Party.

As I said though, we're not going to agree, so there's no point in discussing it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top