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blueinsa
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Not biting Len but thanks for the opportunity.
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Another new Brexit thread
- Thread starter Ric
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Not biting Len but thanks for the opportunity.
'ckin hell mate, a person doesn't have to walk around shouting sieg heil and making a nazi salute to be a fascist.
They're all over the media now. Brexit has given them the perfect excuse to break cover under the guise of patriotism and 'will of the people' against the elites ( the usual fascist starter for ten).
Things can change very quickly. The middle ground has gone in British politics and when this current crisis gets worse the middle classes as they always do will protect their interests by turning to Fascism.
Fascism always arrives as your friend.
Wake up and smell the fascist coffee.
*Waves*
I just want honesty about the way things are goingSo the 2016 ref was on the basis of Leave making all sorts of undeliverable promises, and you want the second ref to be on the basis of your personal opinion of what's inevitable in 20 years time.
Though I'm not sure how to reconcile your different views of what's inevitable (full integration of the UK into the EU, or the collapse of the EU).
Curious as to why you are struggling to ".....reconcile your different views of what's inevitable (full integration of the UK into the EU, or the collapse of the EU)."
Those views would scream out entire consistency IMO and of course because of that...
They absolutely underpin my concern that the UK need to get away from the failing EU model
I suspect that you are just searching for inconsistency / issues where none exists and that is impairing your level of analysis / thinking things through
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blueinsa
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*Waves*
What he means is both the right and left have decided that it has gone as they dont want it to exist anymore.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
Agree. You have me wrong though. I am very much a centralist who actually voted Tory (in Scotland) at the last election as I am/was a very strong supporter of the Union, and thought at the time that Davidson was a good central leaning Unionist. Its fair to say that these last three years have changed my politics somewhat and like many others I now feel politically homeless but certainly see the Tory government for what they are.I am a traditional left of centre Labour voter so can agree in principle with the vast majority of what you say bothers you mate i really can.
Where we probably differ and i know i really differ with a few posters on here is that i see conservatives as just that, mostly right of centre traditional conservatives who differ politically yes but are not some sort of devil incarnate which you would be forgiven for thinking reading some stuff these days including on here.
The rhetoric does my fucking swede in these days of fascist this, racist that, thrown around for no other reason than to score a political point.
Brexit is such a divisive subject that for every remainer who thinks the BBC is biased, i will find you a leaver who thinks the exact same, just the opposite ;-)
Political parties are all about self interest because the people that make them up, the politicians are natural born survivors whose only aim is to be in power and they will literally do and say anything to gain that power.
Lies are the default way of gaining it to garner your vote and then to just let you down.
Twas ever thus and if one good thing can come of this shitshow its a UK that emerges with a new way of doing politics and the status quo we have now on all sides are shown the fucking door for good.
What he means is both the right and left have decided that it has gone as they dont want it to exist anymore.
I’m one of those on the left that gets called Tory scum for speaking out against antisemitism.
Rascal
El Presidente
Is that from Foucault?This this is the most detailed definition of fascism I have seen, covering 14 points. I totally agree that using the word as an easy insult is abhorrent. However, those that don’t recognise the beginnings of some of the behaviours and traits in today’s U.K. have their eyes wide shut.
1. Powerful and persistent nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain special cases. The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities, liberals, communists, socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military
Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding.
5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. Maintenance of a patriarchal status quo is the norm.
6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship of the media is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even if sometimes the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is often the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals, Centers Of Education and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
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blueinsa
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Agree. You have me wrong though. I am very much a centralist who actually voted Tory (in Scotland) at the last election as I am/was a very strong supporter of the Union, and thought at the time that Davidson was a good central leaning Unionist. Its fair to say that these last three years have changed my politics somewhat and like many others I now feel politically homeless but certainly see the Tory government for what they are.
Fair enough mate.
It reinforces the fact that someones politics as seen through the prism that is brexit is not black and white no matter how much some would like to paint it.
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blueinsa
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I’m one of those on the left that gets called Tory scum for speaking out against antisemitism.
I'm a left of centre Labour racist/fascist.
It is so confusing ;-)
Rascal
El Presidente
I’m one of those on the left that gets called Tory scum for speaking out against antisemitism.
Which halfwit has called you that?
Point them my way please and let me explain a few things to them. Everybody should call out anti Semitism and all other forms of racism as par for the course, and if anybody had the temerity to call me a tory because I would vehemently call out all forms of racism then I would have some serious words to say that probably would include the words (****, stupid,fucking)
We have not gotten very far in the 3 years with Remainers continuously showing no tolerance to the views of Leavers and their reasons for voting Leave.We're not going to get far if anything you happen to think is "inevitable" (either of them) is a "baseline of truth" and not accepting that is "deflection".
What will cause the UK to become part of increased integration in the future has already been mentioned several times - and not just by me.
You guys do not appear to have been listening - so I think that it is reasonable to establish that baseline first - then whether being inside or outside an integrated EU becomes a logical follow up topic
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I am a traditional left of centre Labour voter so can agree in principle with the vast majority of what you say bothers you mate i really can.
Where we probably differ and i know i really differ with a few posters on here is that i see conservatives as just that, mostly right of centre traditional conservatives who differ politically yes but are not some sort of devil incarnate which you would be forgiven for thinking reading some stuff these days including on here.
The rhetoric does my fucking swede in these days of fascist this, racist that, thrown around for no other reason than to score a political point.
Brexit is such a divisive subject that for every remainer who thinks the BBC is biased, i will find you a leaver who thinks the exact same, just the opposite ;-)
Political parties are all about self interest because the people that make them up, the politicians are natural born survivors whose only aim is to be in power and they will literally do and say anything to gain that power.
Lies are the default way of gaining it to garner your vote and then to just let you down.
Twas ever thus and if one good thing can come of this shitshow its a UK that emerges with a new way of doing politics and the status quo we have now on all sides are shown the fucking door for good.
"The rhetoric does my fucking swede in these days of fascist this, racist that, thrown around for no other reason than to score a political point."
It goes on so much that it totally undermines the arguments / points those doing it put forward - IMO, immediately positions them as not worth interacting with
Which halfwit has called you that?
Point them my way please and let me explain a few things to them. Everybody should call out anti Semitism and all other forms of racism as par for the course, and if anybody had the temerity to call me a tory because I would vehemently call out all forms of racism then I would have some serious words to say that probably would include the words (****, stupid,fucking)
I had to come off Twitter recently for it. I had many I followed and who followed me on the left and had to block many in the end.
I’ve been called Neoliberal on here for it too but I’m not going to name the poster as I’m not after an argument.
BobKowalski
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On fascism/authoritarianism
If the threat of political violence, strident nationalism (sinking French or Spanish fishing boats? Seriously?), attempts to bypass parliamentary institutions, Judicary as ‘enemies of the people’, the call for the civil service to be purged and take a Brexit ‘loyalty test’, the constant demonisation of immigrants, the hostility to ‘political correctness’ (just be polite towards minority groups - what’s the issue there?) do not indicate the start of a turn towards fascism/authoritarianism then what does?
If the threat of political violence, strident nationalism (sinking French or Spanish fishing boats? Seriously?), attempts to bypass parliamentary institutions, Judicary as ‘enemies of the people’, the call for the civil service to be purged and take a Brexit ‘loyalty test’, the constant demonisation of immigrants, the hostility to ‘political correctness’ (just be polite towards minority groups - what’s the issue there?) do not indicate the start of a turn towards fascism/authoritarianism then what does?
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blueinsa
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On fascism/authoritarianism
If the threat of political violence, strident nationalism (sinking French or Spanish fishing boats? Seriously?), attempts to bypass parliamentary institutions, Judicary as ‘enemies of the people’, the call for the civil service to be purged and take a Brexit ‘loyalty test’, the constant demonisation of immigrants, the hostility to ‘political correctness’ (just be polite towards minority groups - what’s the issue there?) do not indicate the start of a turn towards fascism/authoritarianism then what does?
You believing the above is happening and telling us?
west didsblue
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You should read the Daily Express. Only once though.You believing the above is happening and telling us?
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blueinsa
Guest
You should read the Daily Express. Only once though.
I should probably also read the morning star or socialist worker the once as well to see what their world view is but id rather not bother reading any and just base my opinions on what i see and experience in my day to day life.
The UK is not and never will be a fascist state imo.
Had brexit been rejected in 2016 we wouldn't be even having this conversation which should tell you all you need to know as to the reasons for it now being trotted out.
Ifwecouldjust.......
Well-Known Member
Yep - as 'I have been repeating if we Remain integration is indeed inevitable and that cannot, IMO, be credibly denied
Just look how difficult leaving the EU is in 2019 - it is going to be a whole lot harder in 2039. If we Remain we should do so on the basis of whole-hearted commitment to full integration - because it is happening anyway.
Let's just be honest with the electorate and not do this in the manner of sneaky politicians
As I have said in the past... this is just your belief and the UK holds the vetos to stop further integration... unless you're saying that the problem is you don't trust your own politicians to use it
On fascism/authoritarianism
If the threat of political violence, strident nationalism (sinking French or Spanish fishing boats? Seriously?), attempts to bypass parliamentary institutions, Judicary as ‘enemies of the people’, the call for the civil service to be purged and take a Brexit ‘loyalty test’, the constant demonisation of immigrants, the hostility to ‘political correctness’ (just be polite towards minority groups - what’s the issue there?) do not indicate the start of a turn towards fascism/authoritarianism then what does?
You believing the above is happening and telling us?
It is indeed happening.....
west didsblue
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I also have faith that the UK won’t become a fascist state, but the likes of Farage and co aided and abetted by the Express and Mail are giving it a good go.I should probably also read the morning star or socialist worker the once as well to see what their world view is but id rather not bother reading any and just base my opinions on what i see and experience in my day to day life.
The UK is not and never will be a fascist state imo.
Had brexit been rejected in 2016 we wouldn't be even having this conversation which should tell you all you need to know as to the reasons for it now being trotted out.
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