Another new Brexit thread

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Hitler was a fascist.

Mussolini was a fascist.

I’d love to know just how many UK citizens some on here think there are like them amongst us, especially when it is intimated that they might have been of such a number to have swung the EU ref result.

Politics and the rhetoric surrounding it has gone completely fucking bonkers in this country.
 
Yeah, I get that. Its the extremes of both sides that cause the issues, they are intractable and will not be swayed in any way, then they resort to the idiocy that it is damaging.

Most of the debate from my point of view has been puerile bordering on childish, with its petty name calling and ignorance of others positions. Of course you can disagree with a persons position on the issue, I doubt any of us are totally correct but when it comes down to using silly names like remoaner and pathetic names like crypto fascist it really is no wonder the nation is on the precipice. The grown ups have all gone home and the kids rule the play pen.
Amen to that.
 
Hitler was a fascist.

Mussolini was a fascist.

I’d love to know just how many UK citizens some on here think there are like them amongst us, especially when it is intimated that they might have been of such a number to have swung the EU ref result.

Politics and the rhetoric surrounding it has gone completely fucking bonkers in this country.
Anyone who doesn't agree with them is a fascist.
As calling someone a racist now has the same impact as calling them a silly sausage, this term is now
water off a duck's back, I've never known the use of such extreme terminology to describe people of different
political persuasions, it's a fairly recent phenomenon, borne of frustration that their views are not accepted,
by everyone.
 
Anyone who doesn't agree with them is a fascist.
As calling someone a racist now has the same impact as calling them a silly sausage, this term is now
water off a duck's back, I've never known the use of such extreme terminology to describe people of different
political persuasions, it's a fairly recent phenomenon, borne of frustration that their views are not accepted,
by everyone.


This this is the most detailed definition of fascism I have seen, covering 14 points. I totally agree that using the word as an easy insult is abhorrent. However, those that don’t recognise the beginnings of some of the behaviours and traits in today’s U.K. have their eyes wide shut.

1. Powerful and persistent nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain special cases. The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities, liberals, communists, socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military

Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding.

5. Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. Maintenance of a patriarchal status quo is the norm.

6. Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship of the media is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even if sometimes the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is often the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals, Centers Of Education and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.
 
This this is the most detailed definition of fascism I have seen, covering 14 points. I totally agree that using the word as an easy insult is abhorrent. However, those that don’t recognise the beginnings of some of the behaviours and traits in today’s U.K. have their eyes wide shut.

1. Powerful and persistent nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain special cases. The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities, liberals, communists, socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military

Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding.

5. Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. Maintenance of a patriarchal status quo is the norm.

6. Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship of the media is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even if sometimes the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is often the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals, Centers Of Education and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Yeah that does not describe the modern UK.
 
Yep - as 'I have been repeating if we Remain integration is indeed inevitable and that cannot, IMO, be credibly denied

Just look how difficult leaving the EU is in 2019 - it is going to be a whole lot harder in 2039. If we Remain we should do so on the basis of whole-hearted commitment to full integration - because it is happening anyway.

Let's just be honest with the electorate and not do this in the manner of sneaky politicians
So the 2016 ref was on the basis of Leave making all sorts of undeliverable promises, and you want the second ref to be on the basis of your personal opinion of what's inevitable in 20 years time.

Though I'm not sure how to reconcile your different views of what's inevitable (full integration of the UK into the EU, or the collapse of the EU).
it is all the stuff of the dreams of ideologues - the EU model will collapse/implode and hopefully the UK will not have been a member for quite a few years when the inevitable happens
 
Nobody can make that claim - indeed neither can they all claim to speak for the Remain vote

IMO though, what AC stated is indeed obvious - Exiting the EU has indeed not been implemented

There has been the introduction - by Remainers - all these categories of soft, hard etc. as if these were 'a thing'/established options.

These categories did not exist - they have been introduced (fabricated) by Remainers
Like "frictionless trade"? Pretend it's Wikipedia - cite your source for saying Remainers invented "soft / hard Brexit".
 
No? I can see traits of 1, 3, 6, 9, 10, 11, 13 and 14 in the last few years. Each to there own though.
You can see flags everywhere in the UK? Normally it's considered tacky by many people to express national pride except in sporting events.

With 3 it's fair to say that both "sides" of political arguments use these tactics.

With 6 the left say that the BBC isn't impartial and biased against them and the right say it isn't impartial and biased against them.

9, That's the EU in a nutshell. Actually thinking back so is 1. All the EU flags everywhere, promotion of European "nationalism", promotion of the European State, supremacy of Europe over individual sovereign nations, pushing for a European Defence Force. You could be on to something here...
 
mcfc1632
Joined:
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There has been the introduction - by Remainers - all these categories of soft, hard etc. as if these were 'a thing'/established options. That is what I see as fabrication
I see the entire brexit project as a cynical far-right Fabrication, only made possible by the strangle-hold that the brexit backers have on public opinion and the tory party.
Painting "full integration" as something to be feared just reinforces the "little england, send-a-gun-boat colonel blimp image of brexiters" , a badge many wear with pride, as though the state of the UK was somehow a democratic utopia. It is neither democratic or utopian for the vast majority of the population, a situation that brexit seeks to cement in perpetuity, using any and every Fabrication that thatcherites can dream up.
"Fabrication" joins "trajectory" and "Turkey" , "Piece of cake", "unelected dictators" , "project fear", "conscription" and all the other slogans of mass deflections, in the file marked Fail. Maybe telling the truth might do better, radical yes, but you never know....
I tried reading that a couple of times but it did not make a lot of sense to me, but to help me can you please explain:

1. What was the point of posting my profile - when I joined BM etc?

2. You post: "Maybe telling the truth might do better, radical yes, but you never know.." so are you saying that I am a liar?

3. You say "using any and every Fabrication that thatcherites can dream up." Are you accusing me of being a Thatcherite?

I am seeking to do your post the respect of reading and understanding it - so please explain

or @Ifwecouldjust....... you liked the post so maybe you understood it and could explain?
 
Hitler was a fascist.

Mussolini was a fascist.

I’d love to know just how many UK citizens some on here think there are like them amongst us, especially when it is intimated that they might have been of such a number to have swung the EU ref result.

Politics and the rhetoric surrounding it has gone completely fucking bonkers in this country.
I don't know about fascist (can you be a bit of a fascist?) but substitute racist for fascist, and it's certainly enough to have swung the result. (Based on previous BNP votes in GEs before UKIP gave them a home.)
 
This this is the most detailed definition of fascism I have seen, covering 14 points. I totally agree that using the word as an easy insult is abhorrent. However, those that don’t recognise the beginnings of some of the behaviours and traits in today’s U.K. have their eyes wide shut.

1. Powerful and persistent nationalism

Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Would you describe the Welsh and Scots as fascists as they are far more nationalistic than the rest of the UK imo. I wouldn't.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain special cases. The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

I dont see anyone looking the other way to torture, summary executions, assassinations or the incarceration of prisoners, especially those that have done nothing wrong. I would go as far to say that they dont exist in our country, i know summary executions and assassinations dont, at least by the state.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities, liberals, communists, socialists, terrorists, etc.

What common enemy would that be we have created? Globally the western world has been fighting radical Islam for a generation but that isnt some common enemy created by the UK and the rhetoric surround radical Islam suggests it is them who are the fascists if anyone.

4. Supremacy of the Military

Soldiers and military service are glamorized. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding.

Military budget cuts suggests this really isn't the case.

5. Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. Maintenance of a patriarchal status quo is the norm.

The rights of women and their cause for equality has never been so publicised and the strides being made so great. More to do? Of course there is but we are not fascist in our attitudes to women in the UK.

6. Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship of the media is very common.

We have a free press.

7. Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Possibly to some extent but then bombs going off on buses and tubes and vans mowing people down in London with terrorists stabbing people to death also has that effect. National security is absolutely key as the first job of government is to ensure the population is as safe as it can be.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even if sometimes the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.

UK government in cahoots with the church or religion? It really isn't is it?

9. Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

It absolutely is but that is part and parcel of being a capitalist state in a capitalist world by and large and nothing to do with being fascists.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is often the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated, or are severely suppressed.

We still have unions, we still are able to partake in industrial action with the exception of certain jobs but i will accept that legislation curtailing those powers have been a disgrace but again, evidence of a fascist state? No not for me im afraid.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals, Centers Of Education and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Ive seen no evidence of a purge of our universities or academics being censored or arrested, none. The arts have never been as well funded either. Are you mistaking us for China?

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism.

Ridiculous numbers in our prison system aside, again i dont see the police and state on the streets, arresting people for fun and our civil liberties being taken away at all. Sorry but i just dont.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Sounds like the last EU round of discussions to say who gets the top jobs. It also sounds like the vast majority of countries the world over. Is it right? No it isnt but it doesnt suggest fascism.

14. Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

If you can show me actual electoral fraud as in votes being counted when not cast or ballot boxes being discarded and not counted or people being threatened to vote a certain way i will take notice. Spending irregularities does not suggest out voting system is broken or fraudulent, in fact we barely have an election here that doesnt have spending irregularities and i will point out once more that both leave and remain because that is what you are talking about here, both campaigns where fined for spending breaches. Fascist nations may well try to use the judiciary to control elections and results but all i have seen of late id those opposed to the result of the EU ref going to court trying to have it reversed.

I have answered your points mate in an honest way as far as i am concerned and if we dont agree then we dont agree.

If you click to expand your OP you can see them.


 
g of b


The #FBPE mob on twitter have a lot to answer to in my opinion. They are as rabidly extreme as the more contentious leavers. They have helped normalise these smears and they do it not just to leavers but to Corbyn because he hasn't fully backed remain. It is this myopia on both extremes of the debate that pulls it further apart and leaves most of us sensible folk in the middle classed as fascists or Marxists according to whoever is doing the attacking.

This is in my opinion led by the politicians who have encouraged this sort of mindless behaviour in order to further there own specific agenda. The national interest (another fatuous statement) is being used to justify their own peculiar aims whatever they may be. The amount of idiotic sloganeering that has been used by both sides has also debased the outcome. We have become an electorate who are slaves to slogans, however vacuous they maybe. We live and breathe slogans and that sours rational debate. The most effective slogan has probably been "take back control" which in my mind is so simplistic it is ridiculous, because it is easy to associate that with border controls and therefore easy to associate people who voted leave as being anti immigration and therefore by association racist. That is how silly the whole debate has become, association by slogan.

The sad thing is those who truly believe either way in the noble cause of leave or remain are caught up in the mindless idiocy of this sloganeering and labelled accordingly by those on the extremes. That is obvious just by reading a few pages of the debate on here.

Here is a slogan perhaps we can all agree with.

Fuck off you rag cunts.
Again I agree with all that - and of course on BM we can all agree with your thoughts on the scum red bastards

You put your finger on the way the Brexit topic has caused: "The sad thing is those who truly believe either way in the noble cause of leave or remain are caught up in the mindless idiocy of this sloganeering...…"

On a number of occasions I have pointed out how the gratuitous smearing of Leavers with association to racists etc. is a prevailing behaviour by what I would expect are - on other topics - properly sensible Bluemooners. I had expected by pointing it out - these, likely otherwise balanced people - would have a look at themselves, feel embarrassed and stop it.

But no - I have just received pelters and often been compared to scouse fans for playing the victim.

FFS!! - CITY fans calling other CITY fans scousers as they continue their demeaning by association - it seems the subject just overrides what (I hope) would be their normal standards of behaviour.

Anyway, the good news is that since Ric made his appeal at the start of this thread, with a couple of obvious exceptions, there has been a better quality of exchanges
 
My question in no way infers anything is inevitable (but you know that). You are deflecting though. Why not honestly answer the question as I am interested in your and any other remainers answer. And btw, I have sought to understand this multiple times with zero success because people don’t seem to want to answer this question so please, none of your ‘if you are able to get yourself to accept’. You rascal ;-).
I disagree about the deflecting

I am happy to enter into an exchange about why I would rather the UK not become part of a federal USoE

I am just seeking to first establish the baseline that the truth is that if we do Remain then that is the inevitable outcome

Not facing up to that is IMO where the deflection occurs
 
I disagree about the deflecting

I am happy to enter into an exchange about why I would rather the UK not become part of a federal USoE

I am just seeking to first establish the baseline that the truth is that if we do Remain then that is the inevitable outcome

Not facing up to that is IMO where the deflection occurs
The fact that we have different interpretations of the word inevitable doesn't preclude you from answering the question. If you don't want to answer just say so, I would totally respect that too.
 
I disagree about the deflecting

I am happy to enter into an exchange about why I would rather the UK not become part of a federal USoE

I am just seeking to first establish the baseline that the truth is that if we do Remain then that is the inevitable outcome

Not facing up to that is IMO where the deflection occurs
We're not going to get far if anything you happen to think is "inevitable" (either of them) is a "baseline of truth" and not accepting that is "deflection".
 
I have answered your points mate in an honest way as far as i am concerned and if we dont agree then we dont agree.

If you click to expand your OP you can see them.

Appreciate that mate and you will see from my post I didn't call out all of them so for those I didn't, you can assume we are in agreement. Btw, I'm not saying we live in a fascist state - apologie sif you thought I inferred that: 1) I thought it was useful to post a good definition of fascist as the word is used so cheaply these days and 2). I do think there are definitely factions and a wind of direction that would seek to take us there in the future (hence me referencing those numbers).

I know that you wont agree but my main concerns are around the influence of the media (mainstream including BBC), cronyism within the Tory party where self interest is being put before what is good for the country (refer to the recent poll where Tory members put Brexit in front of the UK, the economy, even their own party), the manipulation of the referendum and the complete lack of effort to get to the truth of Banks donation.

Maybe we should revisit this discussion a year into a Tory/Brexit party government after the next election.
 
We’re not fascist and we’re not nearly yet, however there are the signs that we’ve taken a step in that direction.

The next step will either be further towards it or further away and I think everyone should agree it’s the latter that we desperately need to do.
 
Hitler was a fascist.

Mussolini was a fascist.

I’d love to know just how many UK citizens some on here think there are like them amongst us, especially when it is intimated that they might have been of such a number to have swung the EU ref result.

Politics and the rhetoric surrounding it has gone completely fucking bonkers in this country.
'ckin hell mate, a person doesn't have to walk around shouting sieg heil and making a nazi salute to be a fascist.
They're all over the media now. Brexit has given them the perfect excuse to break cover under the guise of patriotism and 'will of the people' against the elites ( the usual fascist starter for ten).
Things can change very quickly. The middle ground has gone in British politics and when this current crisis gets worse the middle classes as they always do will protect their interests by turning to Fascism.
Fascism always arrives as your friend.
Wake up and smell the fascist coffee.
 
Appreciate that mate and you will see from my post I didn't call out all of them so for those I didn't, you can assume we are in agreement. Btw, I'm not saying we live in a fascist state - apologie sif you thought I inferred that: 1) I thought it was useful to post a good definition of fascist as the word is used so cheaply these days and 2). I do think there are definitely factions and a wind of direction that would seek to take us there in the future (hence me referencing those numbers).

I know that you wont agree but my main concerns are around the influence of the media (mainstream including BBC), cronyism within the Tory party where self interest is being put before what is good for the country (refer to the recent poll where Tory members put Brexit in front of the UK, the economy, even their own party), the manipulation of the referendum and the complete lack of effort to get to the truth of Banks donation.

Maybe we should revisit this discussion a year into a Tory/Brexit party government after the next election.

I am a traditional left of centre Labour voter so can agree in principle with the vast majority of what you say bothers you mate i really can.

Where we probably differ and i know i really differ with a few posters on here is that i see conservatives as just that, mostly right of centre traditional conservatives who differ politically yes but are not some sort of devil incarnate which you would be forgiven for thinking reading some stuff these days including on here.

The rhetoric does my fucking swede in these days of fascist this, racist that, thrown around for no other reason than to score a political point.

Brexit is such a divisive subject that for every remainer who thinks the BBC is biased, i will find you a leaver who thinks the exact same, just the opposite ;-)

Political parties are all about self interest because the people that make them up, the politicians are natural born survivors whose only aim is to be in power and they will literally do and say anything to gain that power.

Lies are the default way of gaining it to garner your vote and then to just let you down.

Twas ever thus and if one good thing can come of this shitshow its a UK that emerges with a new way of doing politics and the status quo we have now on all sides are shown the fucking door for good.
 
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