Another new Brexit thread

[Ban-jani]

Amber Rudd confirms her department looking at hardship fund to help with potential increase in unemployment, homelessness and mental health problems in the event of no deal.

Wonderful.

 

[cibaman]

Civil Servants already do so and have done so since the idea of an impartial and professional Civil Service was first mooted. However that is not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is a Civil Service that is not impartial but staffed with individuals that believe in Brexit and it is this belief that dictates whether they should be employed or not.

This idea is gaining currency because Brexiteers are convinced the reason why we have not left the EU is down to officials and politicians having ‘remainer’ sympathies and having ‘no faith’ in Brexit and therefore not prosecuting it properly (notwithstanding the fact that our negotiating team did produce a legal means to exit the EU).

When you distill Brexit into an article of faith and perceive ‘lack of faith’ as being the main impediment to Brexit the only logical endpoint to this thinking is making sure everyone involved ‘believes in Brexit’. The PM must be a Brexiteer. The officials involved in EU negations must be Brexiteers. Our Ambassadors and their staff must be Brexiteers. Make sure the Police Chiefs overseeing any protests are Brexiteers. There will always be someone, somewhere who doesn’t believe hard enough and needs replacing.

Brexit is no longer about leaving the EU. It’s about trying to reshape our society. Where ideology is more important than expertise and pragmatism is replaced by blind faith. And in this world re-education camps are never too far away.

Civil servants should be moderately sceptical generally when it comes to advising government. They shouldn't be obstructive and shouldnt try to thwart policy behind the government's back, but they should point out the potentiall pitfalls of any proposed polcies. They should play devils advocate. They're certainly not there to act as cheerleaders, the political parties are more than capable of doing that themselves.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Amber Rudd confirms her department looking at hardship fund to help with potential increase in unemployment, homelessness and mental health problems in the event of no deal.

Sack her!
We need people who ‘believe in Brexit’

 

[hilts]

Amber Rudd confirms her department looking at hardship fund to help with potential increase in unemployment, homelessness and mental health problems in the event of no deal.

No deal isn’t happening so it’s a bit of a non story really, everybody keeps saying they don’t want no deal much to the amusement of the EU no doubt. Boris Johnson will not and will not be allowed to suspend parliament. The only hope for a resolution without another referendum is if the EU gets as bored as the rest of us and tries for some backstop adjustment.

They may tell us we can no longer extend to hurry up the process but they prefer to be seen in a positive light in case of another referendum.

 

[George Hannah]

Civil Servants already do so and have done so since the idea of an impartial and professional Civil Service was first mooted. However that is not what is being discussed. What is being discussed is a Civil Service that is not impartial but staffed with individuals that believe in Brexit and it is this belief that dictates whether they should be employed or not.

This idea is gaining currency because Brexiteers are convinced the reason why we have not left the EU is down to officials and politicians having ‘remainer’ sympathies and having ‘no faith’ in Brexit and therefore not prosecuting it properly (notwithstanding the fact that our negotiating team did produce a legal means to exit the EU).

When you distill Brexit into an article of faith and perceive ‘lack of faith’ as being the main impediment to Brexit the only logical endpoint to this thinking is making sure everyone involved ‘believes in Brexit’. The PM must be a Brexiteer. The officials involved in EU negations must be Brexiteers. Our Ambassadors and their staff must be Brexiteers. Make sure the Police Chiefs overseeing any protests are Brexiteers. There will always be someone, somewhere who doesn’t believe hard enough and needs replacing.

Brexit is no longer about leaving the EU. It’s about trying to reshape our society. Where ideology is more important than expertise and pragmatism is replaced by blind faith. And in this world re-education camps are never too far away.

You are talking about political appointments, they have always been made and such appointees have a government remit to direct civil servants etc but they are not career civil servants. The new Labour leadership has openly called for the replacement of Permanent Secretary heads of department with Party Apparatchiks - the Politburo model.

 

[Blue Hefner]

[QUOT5wmemberw52ar: 22395"]Sack her!
We need people who ‘believe in Brexit’

But preparing for No Deal is essential to believing in Brexit. The more we demonstrate how awful it will be but also show we can take it, the more likely we are to get a better deal. It's either that or don't prepare and show that "come what may" we are heading for those sunlit uplands.[/QUOTE]

But we are not likely for a couple of reasons:
1) The EU countries have been preparing for ‘no-deal’ for around 2 years
2) They know, as well as you and I do, that a) we’d never go through with it and b) the PM won’t be able to due to Parliament

 

[Vic]

Edited

Sack her!
We need people who ‘believe in Brexit’

But preparing for No Deal is essential to believing in Brexit. The more we demonstrate how awful it will be but also show we can take it, the more likely we are to get a better deal. It's either that or don't prepare and show that "come what may" we are heading for those sunlit uplands.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Amber Rudd confirms her department looking at hardship fund to help with potential increase in unemployment, homelessness and mental health problems in the event of 2019-20 not being Liverpool's year.

This is the real reason for Amber looking down the back of the sofa for a few bob!

 

[Len Rum]

Sack her!
We need people who ‘believe in Brexit’

No way mate.
Amber's had a conversion, she believes in Brexit now!

 

[BobKowalski]

You are talking about political appointments, they have always been made and such appointees have a government remit to direct civil servants etc but they are not civil servants. The new Labour leadership has openly called for the replacement of Permanent Secretarys with Party Apparatchiks - the Politburo model.

Ah the old ‘my argument has been shot to shite so let’s bring out the Corbyn boogyman’ defence. I believe the Daily Mail has the copyright on it.

Anyway fun chatting. Must do it again. Toodles.

 

[smudgedj]

No way mate.
Amber's had a conversion, she believes in Brexit now!

Has she now.
So he’s "not the man you want driving you home at the end of the evening" unless it’s in a ministerial car.

 

[dave_blue12]

Not going to use the f word but we truly live in dangerous times

 

[George Hannah]

Ah the old ‘my argument has been shot to shite so let’s bring out the Corbyn boogyman’ defence. I believe the Daily Mail has the copyright on it. Anyway fun chatting. Must do it again. Toodles.

I didn't expect you to resort to it quite so soon tbh, anyway let's keep it basic for you
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nelsons-column-political-appointees-civil-18205462
if you think you can manage a more informed perspective try this.

 

[Vic]

Not going to use the f word but we truly live in dangerous times

The really worrying bit in that diatribe was that proroguing parliament would be a matter of "semantics".

Would an attempt to prorogue parliament justify violent protest? And where does the duty lie for civil servants and police chiefs and army officers? Are they duty bound to obey a government that cannot command a majority in Parliament so cancels Parliament? It does sound a bit, well, 1933.

 

[BobKowalski]

I didn't expect you to resort to it quite so soon tbh, anyway let's keep it basic for you
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/nelsons-column-political-appointees-civil-18205462
if you think you can manage a more informed perspective try this.

So to clarify your position.

Purge and politicise the Civil Service to advance the cause of Brexit because it’s common sense and all that. Hurrah!

Purge and politicise the Civil Service to advance the cause of Corbyn’s left wing agenda and that’s very, very bad. Boo!

How about a pox on both? Which is where I currently stand.

 

[dave_blue12]

The really worrying bit in that diatribe was that proroguing parliament would be a matter of "semantics".

Would an attempt to prorogue parliament justify violent protest? And where does the duty lie for civil servants and police chiefs and army officers? Are they duty bound to obey a government that cannot command a majority in Parliament so cancels Parliament? It does sound a bit, well, 1933.

It's been obvious to me for some time that we were potentially heading towards this. The Brexit brigade care nothing for the country or democracy and will stop at nothing to achieve their aims.

Hopefully this can be headed off before we reach mass civil disobedience.

Just don't mention the f word.

 

[cibaman]

It's been obvious to me for some time that we were potentially heading towards this. The Brexit brigade care nothing for the country or democracy and will stop at nothing to achieve their aims.

Hopefully this can be headed off before we reach mass civil disobedience.

Just don't mention the f word.

Unfortunately the civil disobedience is even more likely as a result of revocation

 

[George Hannah]

So to clarify your position.
Purge and politicise the Civil Service to advance the cause of Brexit because it’s common sense and all that. Hurrah!
Purge and politicise the Civil Service to advance the cause of Corbyn’s left wing agenda and that’s very, very bad. Boo!
How about a pox on both? Which is where I currently stand.

The civil servants who negotiated Brexit presumably did so following their government's instructions so no problem with them - just their brief. Ivan Rogers honourably resigned at the outset because it seems he couldn't work out what they wanted him to do - that's OK too. So no complaints from me about my former colleagues. The political appointees who were installed to direct them are quite a different kettle of fish but responsibility for their remit and performance rests also with the government and parliament and we've discussed their failures enough for now.
As for Corbyn's crew, well maybe the mutiny is not far off.

 

[dave_blue12]

Unfortunately the civil disobedience is even more likely as a result of revocation

Ì don't believe that's true.

And it's not Brexit per se that will bring the problems but the bypassing of Parliament and the lurch to the right as outlined by Patel.

Brexit is just the first phase of the plan.

 

[hilts]

It's been obvious to me for some time that we were potentially heading towards this. The Brexit brigade care nothing for the country or democracy and will stop at nothing to achieve their aims.

Hopefully this can be headed off before we reach mass civil disobedience.

Just don't mention the f word.

The democracy part has put an ironic smile on my face.