Another new Brexit thread

[blueish swede]

For bendy bananas and curvy cucumbers - absolutey. Feck 'em!

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

we are where we are because of immigration and control of our borders. If you are suggesting we sub contract the control of our UK/EIRE border to the EIRE immigration authorities we are back where we started about 120 pages ago. How is ceding the responsibility to a foreign power taking back control?

This government ceded control of our borders to a private company (G4S)..... After the mess they've made of it (and the Olympics security ) i think id rather trust the Eire immigration authorities

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It’s getting serious now . Boris comes charging in this week determined to leave come what May on the 31 October . He isn’t going to ask for an extension.

The legal position written in law is we leave on 31 / 10 with or without a deal. So any change to coming out then will need a change in law And the eu agreeing to it.

So I am still confused as to what is going to happen given it’s now summer Europe are on hols and the date is coming fast.

Everyone agrees we don’t want no deal.

Everyone hated the negotiated withdrawal agreement and in any event whilst it had a framework for leaving it does not as a matter of law have any legally binding deal about our future trade arrangement with the Eu in the future .that is my biggest issue with it

The Eu have repeatedly said that the existing agreement is it and they are not renegotiating it.

Boris is not going to withdraw article 50. No chance. May or hunt may have been persuaded but Boris no way.

Somebody have any idea what is going to happen as I am completely at a loss and I do think the coming of Boris does mean no deal is ever more likely .

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

It’s getting serious now . Boris comes charging in this week determined to leave come what May on the 31 October . He isn’t going to ask for an extension.

The legal position written in law is we leave on 31 / 10 with or without a deal. So any change to coming out then will need a change in law And the eu agreeing to it.

So I am still confused as to what is going to happen given it’s now summer Europe are on hols and the date is coming fast.

Everyone agrees we don’t want no deal.

Everyone hated the negotiated withdrawal agreement and in any event whilst it had a framework for leaving it does not as a matter of law have any legally binding deal about our future trade arrangement with the Eu in the future .that is my biggest issue with it

The Eu have repeatedly said that the existing agreement is it and they are not renegotiating it.

Boris is not going to withdraw article 50. No chance. May or hunt may have been persuaded but Boris no way.

Somebody have any idea what is going to happen as I am completely at a loss and I do think the coming of Boris does mean no deal is ever more likely .

Parliamentary maths have not changed so Boris can afford to appear to want to push brexit through but it still won't get beyond parliament. We're probably looking at a GE by Xmas with either remain or hard brexit being the options depending on the balance of power in parliament after that. Don't hold me to any of this.

 

[Ban-jani]

Having read the last few pages with interest as each side develops its argument one thing strikes me. It is how trade has dominated the argument over people.

It does come across that the people of Northern Ireland have almost assumed second class citizenry and their needs/desires/votes/wants are being ignored. I don't blame leavers or remainers for this I blame the idiots who set up the referendum without considering the issues that could arise through devolution of powers and the importance of the GFA to them.

If the price of leaving the EU is throwing the people of NI to the wolves then is it really worth it?

People don’t give a shit it seems.

They will try any way they can, turning themselves almost inside out, to try to convince themselves even before the rest of us, that Brexit isn’t to blame for anything.

 

[Ban-jani]

Parliamentary maths have not changed so Boris can afford to appear to want to push brexit through but it still won't get beyond parliament. We're probably looking at a GE by Xmas with either remain or hard brexit being the options depending on the balance of power in parliament after that. Don't hold me to any of this.

I think you’re right.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Parliamentary maths have not changed so Boris can afford to appear to want to push brexit through but it still won't get beyond parliament. We're probably looking at a GE by Xmas with either remain or hard brexit being the options depending on the balance of power in parliament after that. Don't hold me to any of this.

My view is that because he has put his neck on the block about the 31/10 and that most opinion polls now show that must people just want an end to it so leave or revoke by 31/10 but don’t extend as it is just more of the same mess .

I think the outcome will be leaving on 31/10 on the existing withdrawal agreement with a concession around the backstop which looks like Boris has changed it and the Eu have been flexible but the reality will be it’s pretty much the exact same agreement as before but it means Boris has got us out .

 

[Blue Hefner]

Having read the last few pages with interest as each side develops its argument one thing strikes me. It is how trade has dominated the argument over people.

It does come across that the people of Northern Ireland have almost assumed second class citizenry and their needs/desires/votes/wants are being ignored. I don't blame leavers or remainers for this I blame the idiots who set up the referendum without considering the issues that could arise through devolution of powers and the importance of the GFA to them.

If the price of leaving the EU is throwing the people of NI to the wolves then is it really worth it?

It appears to have gone past the is it worth it debate. It’s also gone past what are the benefits and what are the negative debates - it is now Brexit at all costs, unfortunately. Which makes any attempt at debate pretty pointless

 

[mcfc1632]

A good compromise leaves everyone equally unhappy.

So May's deal - using that logic - was/is a clearly shit deal

Had to smile reading these last 15 pages or so

All this angst put forward about the unsurmountable border issue between Ireland and N.I. - often by the same people that demand that Brexit will Lead to Scotland leaving the UK as if that is some 'overnight event'

 

[Rascal]

People don’t give a shit it seems.

They will try any way they can, turning themselves almost inside out, to try to convince themselves even before the rest of us, that Brexit isn’t to blame for anything.

I don't blame Brexit for it, I blame those who consider that Brexit must be done at all costs. It just cannot be right that a UK government can even contemplate leaving British subjects voiceless and over ride their concerns. I do think the importance of the GFA is being underestimated and having lived through and seen some of the atrocities committed the last think I would ever want is a return to those days. Of course that may not happen, but is it worth the gamble that they don't.

I do not believe the break up of the United Kingdom is a price worth paying and I am not of the loyalist persuasion. The only answer to it that can I see as an option is that of a United Ireland, which of course the DUP will never contemplate which means that a parliamentary majority for Brexit will be nigh on impossible to achieve as it currently stands. That of course suits me because I want a General Election and one would have to be called if no majority can be found.

The debate about borders should be challenged, its a debate about people and I think we have lost sight of that.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don't blame Brexit for it, I blame those who consider that Brexit must be done at all costs. It just cannot be right that a UK government can even contemplate leaving British subjects voiceless and over ride their concerns. I do think the importance of the GFA is being underestimated and having lived through and seen some of the atrocities committed the last think I would ever want is a return to those days. Of course that may not happen, but is it worth the gamble that they don't.

I do not believe the break up of the United Kingdom is a price worth paying and I am not of the loyalist persuasion. The only answer to it that can I see as an option is that of a United Ireland, which of course the DUP will never contemplate which means that a parliamentary majority for Brexit will be nigh on impossible to achieve as it currently stands. That of course suits me because I want a General Election and one would have to be called if no majority can be found.

The debate about borders should be challenged, its a debate about people and I think we have lost sight of that.

Well yes the Withdrawal Agreement sorted out the issue but I wasn’t Brexit enough for them.

We’ll be having a GE soon anyway so it won’t get that far.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Well yes the Withdrawal Agreement sorted out the issue but I wasn’t Brexit enough for them.

We’ll be having a GE soon anyway so it won’t get that far.

Yes that’s right re write history it was just leavers who voted against the withdrawal agreement wasn’t it ?

No remainer voted against it did they ?

The entire Labour Party put party politics to one side and voted for it didn’t they???

No in your head it never got voted through because half a dozen erg members never voted for it ?

 

[Ban-jani]

Yes that’s right re write history it was just leavers who voted against the withdrawal agreement wasn’t it ?

No remainer voted against it did they ?

The entire Labour Party put party politics to one side and voted for it didn’t they???

No in your head it never got voted through because half a dozen erg members never voted for it ?

Why would remainers vote to leave?

 

[cibaman]

I don't blame Brexit for it, I blame those who consider that Brexit must be done at all costs. It just cannot be right that a UK government can even contemplate leaving British subjects voiceless and over ride their concerns. I do think the importance of the GFA is being underestimated and having lived through and seen some of the atrocities committed the last think I would ever want is a return to those days. Of course that may not happen, but is it worth the gamble that they don't.

I do not believe the break up of the United Kingdom is a price worth paying and I am not of the loyalist persuasion. The only answer to it that can I see as an option is that of a United Ireland, which of course the DUP will never contemplate which means that a parliamentary majority for Brexit will be nigh on impossible to achieve as it currently stands. That of course suits me because I want a General Election and one would have to be called if no majority can be found.

The debate about borders should be challenged, its a debate about people and I think we have lost sight of that.

I don’t think the ROI would want unification as a consequence of Brexit.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Why would remainers vote to leave?

Because they voted in parlaiment to trigger article 50 and stated in their manifesto they would respect the result ?

So if they were such hardened remainers they should never have voted to trigger article 50 in which it gave the possibility of leaving with no deal

 

[Rascal]

I don’t think the ROI would want unification as a consequence of Brexit.

That is a fair point.

 

[blueinsa]

Well yes the Withdrawal Agreement sorted out the issue but I wasn’t Brexit enough for them.

Nor plenty of remain MP's either.

Its very important to keep reminding people of this fact.

 

[blueinsa]

Why would they smuggle themselves into ‘civic, progressive, inclusive’ Eire just to illegally move to the ‘hateful, unwelcoming, and regressive’ United Kingdom. Crazy.

Not to mention the near 300 nautical mile sea crossing between Rosslare and Cherbourg which is the shortest crossing i think?

They then make their way to Belfast to face yet another sea crossing to Scotland to make mainland UK?

Nah im not having it.

 

[Saddleworth2]

There was a journalist on the James O’Brien show yesterday that had gained access to the executive of the WTO. You know, the body that will bail us out when we crash out with no deal and rely on their agreements. Friends and fellow blues, would it surprise you to learn that the Director General of the WTO thinks we are absolutely off our trollies to even countenance such a move as it will ‘inevitably’ result in massive trade disruption and tariff increases which in some cases will make businesses non viable. The Agriculture sector was called out as one of the worst affected. So this isn’t the EU saying this, it’s the WTO.

What I found particularly depressing/non surprising was that other than this one journalist they (the wto) said there had been zero dialogue with U.K. mainstream media (or politicians that claimed a nodeal/wto solution was the way to go). Wouldn’t you think the likes of the BBC would want to out the facts around Johnson’s claims? Maybe he should write it on the side of a bus.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

There was a journalist on the James O’Brien show yesterday that had gained access to the executive of the WTO. You know, the body that will bail us out when we crash out with no deal and rely on their agreements. Friends and fellow blues, would it surprise you to learn that the Director General of the WTO thinks we are absolutely off our trollies to even countenance such a move as it will ‘inevitably’ result in massive trade disruption and tariff increases which in some cases will make businesses non viable. The Agriculture sector was called out as one of the worst affected. So this isn’t the EU saying this, it’s the WTO.

What I found particularly depressing/non surprising was that other than this one journalist they (the wto) said there had been zero dialogue with U.K. mainstream media (or politicians that claimed a nodeal/wto solution was the way to go). Wouldn’t you think the likes of the BBC would want to out the facts around Johnson’s claims? Maybe he should write it on the side of a bus.

I heard that interview. It was alarming.