Another new Brexit thread

[aguero93:20]

Steve Bannon

Yep. Thought I recognized it.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Yep. Thought I recognized it.

But him and his company using 'weapons grade' use of information and propaganda had absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit result. Nothing at all. Despite then having a history in this area, they had nothing to do with the Brexit result

 

[BobKowalski]

EU planning for no deal = sensible, they know what they are doing.

UK planning for no deal = bad......really really bad.

To be honest when our planning consists of £108m to assist businesses I kind of tune out. If we are trying to bluff the EU then putting tuppence ha’penny into the pot isn’t going to cut it and if we are serious about no deal then ditto.

 

[aguero93:20]

To be honest when our planning consists of £108m to assist businesses I kind of tune out. If we are trying to bluff the EU then putting tuppence ha’penny into the pot isn’t going to cut it and if we are serious about no deal then ditto.

Yeah, that's about 20% of what ourselves and the EU have allocated for beef farmers in Ireland alone in that scenario.

 

[aguero93:20]

But him and his company using 'weapons grade' use of information and propaganda had absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit result. Nothing at all. Despite then having a history in this area, they had nothing to do with the Brexit result

So we're told, despite all the blatant evidence to the contrary. He must be delighted. 2 columns of democracy shattered already (press and Parliament).

 

[west didsblue]

But him and his company using 'weapons grade' use of information and propaganda had absolutely nothing to do with the Brexit result. Nothing at all. Despite then having a history in this area, they had nothing to do with the Brexit result

As Vic has already implied, none of this mattered at the time of the vote because the Leave voters found out all about the EU by themselves and made their decisions based on a detailed analysis of how EU institutions operate and identified shortcomings that they didn't like.

 

[Rascal]

"I don't care, now ANSWER MY QUESTION!"

What is your question?

 

[lancs blue]

What is your question?

It'll be something to do with fish.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I think it is really hard to explain because of the rise of negative connotations surrounding the use of the word British with Nationalists. Its not a distinct culture, it can not be because of the cultural differences not only between the constituent nations of the Union but also between the regions of the nations. It shares a common language but has secondary and distinct languages, it remains class riven whilst some areas have more in common with others such as maybe Manchester sharing a common industrial heritage with Glasgow, Manchester and Glasgow will share nothing but language with a village in Berkshire. It could be said Britishness is forced upon the other nations of the Union by the dominance of the English but without that enforcement there would be no metaphorical Great in Britain. So it could be argued that each constituent nation contributes to the overall sense of Britishness. That Britain would be one with a long history that is not all good but dominated the world, a Britain that has the mother of Parliaments and the Magna Carta but one that also forced the treaty of Union through with Scotland and was brutal in its oppression of Ireland under Cromwell.

I think Britishness only comes to the fore in times of national crisis, then it can be formidable but in normal times each part of the nation gets on with being itself and revels in its own identity. The English have always been at the core of Britishness as the dominant partner which is why the rise of English Nationalism makes me so fearful for our combined futures. I see our collective values of tolerance, understanding, democracy and fairness as being under threat.

I know that doesn't really answer your question at all, it is just muses, so how do i identify myself. I am foremost a proud Mancunian and everything else is secondary to that. I tick the box British if I am answering a questionnaire, I rarely consider myself English because English identity is distinct from Mancunian identity in my eyes. I see England as London and the Home Counties. I just don't have much in common with them and they don't with me.

In fairness Rascal, ramblings or not, it's as good an insight as I've encountered. Thanks for that and to Bob and MetalBiker too.
Combined, it gives me a picture that is not that far removed from my view of Britishness.
MB referred to the Acts of Union. Do other colonies around the world count as British? Are/were Indian people born pre: 1947 British?
Bob referred to being British abroad. There is no doubt a lot to be proud of at home, when you are away, but is home England or Britain?
I found the highlighted line above very honest and very interesting, as it is I think, how it is viewed by a lot outside of England. (co-incidence - spell check keeps trying to change Britishness to Brutishness ;) )
Britishness was forced upon many violently. It involved the dispossession of indigenous people and it demanded loyalty to an English Monarchy.
There is no doubt that being part of the union of GB and the UK has it's benefits. It must do otherwise why would it be supported.
My view has has always been that the main beneficiaries of the Empire as it was and the Union as it is now have always been the rich and the ruling classes.
I never understood what the Scottish or the Welsh got out of it, but there must be something.
But look at Ireland. Getting out of it has proved more difficult than the 3 years you have endured since your Brexit vote.

I look at English people now wanting an English identity and think why not? Seems logical to me.
There is a great deal to be proud of in your heritage and I don't want this to be a Brit bashing exercise.
If NI people can have dual citizenship where is the problem with English people being British and English?

Regarding being British and being in the EU?

Brexit has really thrown a spanner in the works though as there is a conflict between being in the union and being in the EU. (The whole point I know)
By population UK has nearly 67million. Scotland has 5.5m approx. Wales over 3m and NI about 1.8m I think.
So basically even if 100% of Scotland Wales and NI had voted to stay in the EU, really the way England votes is the key to their future?
Am I misreading this or have I missed something subtle in the referendum? Because if that is how it is, it reinforces my view that Britain has always been more about the English ruling classes and an empirical view on the union.

 

[The perfect fumble]

 

[Blue Hefner]

In fairness Rascal, ramblings or not, it's as good an insight as I've encountered. Thanks for that and to Bob and MetalBiker too.
Combined, it gives me a picture that is not that far removed from my view of Britishness.
MB referred to the Acts of Union. Do other colonies around the world count as British? Are/were Indian people born pre: 1947 British?
Bob referred to being British abroad. There is no doubt a lot to be proud of at home, when you are away, but is home England or Britain?
I found the highlighted line above very honest and very interesting, as it is I think, how it is viewed by a lot outside of England. (co-incidence - spell check keeps trying to change Britishness to Brutishness ;) )
Britishness was forced upon many violently. It involved the dispossession of indigenous people and it demanded loyalty to an English Monarchy.
There is no doubt that being part of the union of GB and the UK has it's benefits. It must do otherwise why would it be supported.
My view has has always been that the main beneficiaries of the Empire as it was and the Union as it is now have always been the rich and the ruling classes.
I never understood what the Scottish or the Welsh got out of it, but there must be something.
But look at Ireland. Getting out of it has proved more difficult than the 3 years you have endured since your Brexit vote.

I look at English people now wanting an English identity and think why not? Seems logical to me.
There is a great deal to be proud of in your heritage and I don't want this to be a Brit bashing exercise.
If NI people can have dual citizenship where is the problem with English people being British and English?

Regarding being British and being in the EU?

Brexit has really thrown a spanner in the works though as there is a conflict between being in the union and being in the EU. (The whole point I know)
By population UK has nearly 67million. Scotland has 5.5m approx. Wales over 3m and NI about 1.8m I think.
So basically even if 100% of Scotland Wales and NI had voted to stay in the EU, really the way England votes is the key to their future?
Am I misreading this or have I missed something subtle in the referendum? Because if that is how it is, it reinforces my view that Britain has always been more about the English ruling classes and an empirical view on the union.

Funnily enough, I was thinking about this yesterday. Just another consequence of an poorly thought referendum

 

[Vic]

It's quite remarkable. Leave has actually adopted Project Fear. They're not calling it that. They're calling it Project Preparation.

Everything they said wouldn't happen, they are now preparing for.

The only difference is that this is supposed to scare the EU without scaring Welsh farmers, Scottish fishermen and the rest of us.

 

[Ban-jani]

Farage turning on Johnson.

Saying with him we’ll be in the EU still in 2021.

Obviously upset he hasn’t reached out to him and further highlights the career politicians these two despicable tests are.

 

[Blue Hefner]

We are in safe hands; if this doesn't fill you full of confidence then I don't know what will

 

[west didsblue]

Funnily enough, I was thinking about this yesterday. Just another consequence of an poorly thought referendum

In retrospect, the consequences of mixed results in the home nations should have been considered prior to the vote. It's patently unfair that a Leave voting England can drag a Remain voting Scotland and NI out of the EU against their will. Maybe there should have been follow up votes in England and Wales only, asking if we wanted to leave the UK to achieve Brexit.

 

[blueinsa]

In retrospect, the consequences of mixed results in the home nations should have been considered prior to the vote. It's patently unfair that Leave voting England can drag a Remain voting Scotland and NI out of the EU against their will. Maybe there should have been follow up votes in England and Wales only, asking if we wanted to leave the UK to achieve Brexit.

Does it then follow that any ref result to take Scotland out of the union has to be ratified by the rest of the union in full?

 

[west didsblue]

Does it then follow that any ref result to take Scotland out of the union has to be ratified by the rest of the union in full?

Why would it?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Does it then follow that any ref result to take Scotland out of the union has to be ratified by the rest of the union in full?

Fair point, but that's like asking do the rest of the EU have to ratify you leaving the EU.

 

[blueinsa]

Fair point, but that's like asking do the rest of the EU have to ratify you leaving the EU.

Which makes my point.......

The UK voted to leave, not England, Wales and Oldham did whilst Scotland and Lewisham didn't etc etc etc.

If Scotland votes to leave the union that is very much a decision for the Scottish electorate.

 

[west didsblue]

Which makes my point.......

The UK voted to leave, not England, Wales and Oldham did whilst Scotland and Lewisham didn't etc etc etc.

If Scotland votes to leave the union that is very much a decision for the Scottish electorate.

That's why I said that the potential consequence of different nations within the UK voting for different things should have been considered at the time of the vote. They weren't and it's too late now. Rambling on about the rest of the UK voting to ratify Scotland going independent is totally irrelevant to the point I made.