Another new Brexit thread

[aguero93:20]

You heard the exact same thing on here long before he appeared again.

The backstop is an attempt by the EU and Dublin to break the union up.

It would be far easier to break the union up with a hard Brexit. Johnson must be an EU stooge.

 

[Metal Biker]

You voted for an ideal led by Johnson and Farage. Who did you expect would influence how it was carried out?

No, I voted for an ideal that was supported for many decades by the likes of Corbyn (before he bizarrely decided he "Liked" the EU now), other Labour MP's and figures, some Greens and Lib Dems, unions, socialists, libertarians, liberals and centrists.

Brexit was supported across all political viewpoints, not just Tory and Farage.

 

[Metal Biker]

You're all responsible mate, it's your government. That's the way it's seen in the rest of the world.

Then it's a wrong viewpoint, exceptionally narrow-minded and full of ignorance.

Are democrats In America basically as racist as Trump?

 

[west didsblue]

I was once a supporter of the EU, you do know that, right?

Things like the financial crisis, Lisbon Treaty and Crimea made me question this "Union" of ours. The suggestions for a European Defence Force only exacerbated it, and the demands for more financial contributions from the UK in 2014 only made things worse. The straw that broke the camels back were the results from the reform negotiations. Up until then I was still supportive and am still supportive of the idea of the EEC, but not a post Maastricht or Lisbon EU.

There's some desperate stuff in there for sure.
If you're talking about the global financial crisis, that was caused by the US sub prime mortgage market. Nothing to do with the EU.
If you're talking about Greece, that's the Eurozone not us.
Crimea was part of a non-EU, non-NATO country and was invaded by another non-EU, non-NATO country. Nothing to do with the EU.
Maastricht was signed in 1992 and Lisbon was signed in 2007. So up until the reform discussions in 2015 you supported the idea of the EEC but not the EU that had been there for 22 years?
You really haven't got much of a clue have you?

 

[Metal Biker]

You’re not dismissing people’s opinions are you?

Those that voted for he Brexit Party are represented, just as I am with my Liberal Democrat MEP.

I’m talking about potentially catastrophic issues across the whole of the continent and the ability to deal with them effectively.

Climate change is far easier to deal with if there is a a European Parliament, than if there isn’t.

Course not, but then I don't regard the EUroParl with any degree of respect. It's not true democracy as they don't govern over their members (yet...)

If this is another "we must avoid no deal!" debate, i've already said, countless times, that I agree, and since our pathetic PArliament and MP's have done as well, our only option is to revoke. I don't support the idea on a moral level, but it's the only option that causes the least damage.

It's only a hope now that the backstop, since approved by NI citizens, is only slightly amended, but that the customs union part is taken out, that the WA would gain my support for Parliament to pass it, but I don't see any of that happening.

 

[Metal Biker]

There's some desperate stuff in there for sure.
If you're talking about the global financial crisis, that was caused by the US sub prime mortgage market. Nothing to do with the EU.
If you're talking about Greece, that's the Eurozone not us.
Crimea was part of a non-EU, non-NATO country and was invaded by another non-EU, non-NATO country. Nothing to do with the EU.
Maastricht was signed in 1992 and Lisbon was signed in 2007. So up until the reform discussions in 2015 you supported the idea of the EEC but not the EU that had been there for 22 years?
You really haven't got much of a clue have you?

Yeah, they didn't really talk about Maastricht much when I watched Newsround.

I knew of Lisbon before Maastricht, as the news about Lisbon was in the news a lot in 2007, and about the EU in general peaked my interest as a young man, whcih led me to other things like Maastricht, and when I was aware, I was not impressed. Because that's how people learn; they become aware of something, do research, and form opinion. Sometimes that may involve learning about things that may have already happened in the past.

You really haven't got much of a clue, have you.

 

[Ban-jani]

You're all responsible mate, it's your government. That's the way it's seen in the rest of the world.

Well the rest of the world are wrong.

If I haven’t done something then I’m not responsible.

I voted Remain and will vote for any party that offers remain policy going forward. It’s not my fault.

 

[Vic]

Brexit was supported across all political viewpoints, not just Tory and Farage.

Are democrats In America basically as racist as Trump?

Cake and eat it?

Brexit is largely right wing, so is Trump.

 

[Ban-jani]

Course not, but then I don't regard the EUroParl with any degree of respect. It's not true democracy as they don't govern over their members (yet...)

If this is another "we must avoid no deal!" debate, i've already said, countless times, that I agree, and since our pathetic PArliament and MP's have done as well, our only option is to revoke. I don't support the idea on a moral level, but it's the only option that causes the least damage.

It's only a hope now that the backstop, since approved by NI citizens, is only slightly amended, but that the customs union part is taken out, that the WA would gain my support for Parliament to pass it, but I don't see any of that happening.

It wasn’t a stop no deal point but we should definitely at all costs, but that’s a separate point.

It was purely on climate change and the ability to get all countries committing to zero carbon. Being in something like the EU massively helps.

 

[Vic]

Course not, but then I don't regard the EUroParl with any degree of respect. It's not true democracy as they don't govern over their members (yet...)

If this is another "we must avoid no deal!" debate, i've already said, countless times, that I agree, and since our pathetic PArliament and MP's have done as well, our only option is to revoke. I don't support the idea on a moral level, but it's the only option that causes the least damage.

It's only a hope now that the backstop, since approved by NI citizens, is only slightly amended, but that the customs union part is taken out, that the WA would gain my support for Parliament to pass it, but I don't see any of that happening.

Ye gods and little fishes. The customs union part is the backstop!

 

[west didsblue]

Yeah, they didn't really talk about Maastricht much when I watched Newsround.

I knew of Lisbon before Maastricht, as the news about Lisbon was in the news a lot in 2007, and about the EU in general peaked my interest as a young man, whcih led me to other things like Maastricht, and when I was aware, I was not impressed. Because that's how people learn; they become aware of something, do research, and form opinion. Sometimes that may involve learning about things that may have already happened in the past.

You really haven't got much of a clue, have you.

You obviously didn't really learn very much when you looked into Crimea and the financial crisis.
And you obviously don't remember a time before the EU anyway so what makes you think being in the EEC and not the EU is so great?
In that period between 1975 and 1993 we went from the humiliation of having to get a bail out from the IMF in 1976 to the destruction of the economy of the north of England and mass unemployment in the 1980s, then the ERM crisis of the early 1990s. I'm not saying that's all because of the EEC but there's scant evidence that everything was great in the EEC days and it's all gone to shit since the EU came about in 1993.
I would say I've got a bit more of a clue than you.

 

[Metal Biker]

It wasn’t a stop no deal point but we should definitely at all costs, but that’s a separate point.

It was purely on climate change and the ability to get all countries committing to zero carbon. Being in something like the EU massively helps.

Again this is merely a side point, an example that people run with when i'm asked to give an opinion of something. It's becoming tiresome actually as the main point i try to make gets lost. People think being in the EU is beneficial in that regard, I fail to see what difference it makes when, being in a union or not, signing things like Kyoto matters not a jot on your union status.

In or out the EU, our Parliament and nation can and should tackle climate change. Being in the EU does not make that any easier or more difficult. I mean what are the EU going to do "disagree" with the UK on tackling climate change? Again, difference of opinion, I feel it has no bearing on membership. That's the main point; federalism doesn't affect everything except personal liberties, and that is what I fight to preserve.

 

[Metal Biker]

You obviously didn't really learn very much when you looked into Crimea and the financial crisis.
And you obviously don't remember a time before the EU anyway so what makes you think being in the EEC and not the EU is so great?
In that period between 1975 and 1993 we went from the humiliation of having to get a bail out from the IMF in 1976 to the destruction of the economy of the north of England and mass unemployment in the 1980s, then the ERM crisis of the early 1990s. I'm not saying that's all because of the EEC but there's scant evidence that everything was great in the EEC days and it's all gone to shit since the EU came about in 1993.
I would say I've got a bit more of a clue than you.

Because when I knew what the EEC was I supported the fact we had joined it. I still support that sort of system and would love to see the EU REFORM back to an EEC system, and not the wasteful, superpower aspiriations of the current EU.

I agree that Europe should hold a Council, where representatives meet to discuss issues affecting each nation, but it should be more like the UN, representative powers, not sovereign, which the EU eventually wants to attain from it's members more and more, until it reached the point where I said that I felt that was enough, but the EU made more and more proposals I could not endorse. You want that future for Europe? Fine, but I don't and I will exercise my rights to protest against it whenever and wherever I can.

Your last comment suggests you're labouring under the delusion that age brings wisdom. It doesn't.

 

[west didsblue]

Because when I knew what the EEC was I supported the fact we had joined it. I still support that sort of system and would love to see the EU REFORM back to an EEC system, and not the wasteful, superpower aspiriations of the current EU.

I agree that Europe should hold a Council, where representatives meet to discuss issues affecting each nation, but it should be more like the UN, representative powers, not sovereign, which the EU eventually wants to attain from it's members more and more, until it reached the point where I said that I felt that was enough, but the EU made more and more proposals I could not endorse. You want that future for Europe? Fine, but I don't and I will exercise my rights to protest against it whenever and wherever I can.

Your last comment suggests you're labouring under the delusion that age brings wisdom. It doesn't.

So the fact that our prosperity since the formation of the EU increased to a much greater extent than it did under the EEC means nothing to you.

Presumably because it's not all about the economy (as long as it's not yourself that's unemployed and/or living in a shithole).

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Singapore on Liffey indeed.

A bit dodgey. Wouldn't eat there if you're visiting.

 

[Metal Biker]

So the fact that our prosperity since the formation of the EU increased to a much greater extent than it did under the EEC means nothing to you.

Presumably because it's not all about the economy (as long as it's not yourself that's unemployed and/or living in a shithole).

I sort of already am or at least not earning as much as I'd like.

I fail to see these EU sunny uplands we're apparently getting, although we did get new bus shelters. That was useful on rainy work mornings. I don't blame the EU on that regard though, as stated, it's not my key issue for leaving. Do you conveniently forget the part where I keep saying, time and time again, I SUPPORT trade with Europe, SUPPORT Freedom of movement/labour/goods, and generally SUPPORT European co-operation?

It's the political aspect I want ending. It's really not too much of a request, is it.

 

[Vic]

Which is again the point you're not understanding.

Yes, all members must approve of it, but it should never be a position any member is meant to deliberate on IN THE FIRST PLACE.

And every time we refuse, opt out, but the EU goes along with it, the further away from the "EU" we become. So it's a case of conform, or be left behind. What a glorious choice.

And look what's happening to the world. Temperatures rising, pollution making people sicker and the oceans are full of plastic.

The EU is doing little to address this problem, it's just continuing as it always has done. Ever closer integration, global superpower, citizens are mere workers, not people, cheap labour for all. That is why the Greens did so well in the Euro Parl elections, people all over Europe are saying they've had enough of this waste and excessive behaviour the EU higherups embrace.

I don't know what's going to happen to the nation in 50 years time. 50 years ago we were locked in political tensions with the Soviet Union, England were the reigning world champions and Vietnam War was heating up. It's a ridiculous timeframe to suggest. England could have joined a different union to a European one, maybe NAFTA, no idea. I am concerned about what I see happening right now, and I don't wish to see Europe become a superpower. It reeks of 18th Century European Imperialist mentality, a world where Europe decides important matters. Federalism on that scale is only inevitable if the people allow it, and we're ones who are saying "no", as is our right to.

You're wanting to shut down the possibility that sometime within the next 50 years we might want to say "yes".

 

[Vic]

I don't want "power" I want the focus to be on the people living here, to improve their lot in life by spending resources and finances on us, not problems in the world. I've never grown up with "Rule Britannia", i'm not a flag waver, which is why the ever growing "power" of the EU is starting to disgust me. I don't like "superpowers", don't see the purpose of "political" unions as they rarely address issues from either side, or mostly anger one side or the other and generally don't wish to have the UK be seen to contribute towards such an eventuality for Europe and the people of Europe.

We have to give the EU a contribution towards a budget which is spent elsewhere. Nothing else, just it's own vanity project. How much did the new EU Parlaiment building cost? How much do EU MEP's earn? How much does the entire EU Parliamentary setup cost? It's a complete waste of european citizens taxpayers money, all so some old men in suits can act billy big bollocks with ambassadors and representatives from China and the US at swanky dos they've paid for.

I wanted reform of the EU, to focus less on politics and more on it's members citizens. That has not transpired, so when asked would I leave it or stay in it, am I expected to lie and say "remain" or say no, i'm not happy with this "Union"?

Ridiculous to say our contributions go on vanity projects. There are some odd projects certainly but new roads, academic research, new leisure centres in deprived areas (see Cadwalladr's TED talk) are where most EU spending goes.

 

[Vic]

I understand what a union is, but in an ever increasingly globalist world, I no longer consider it's role as being important. And it is quite clear to me that the interests on the people living on this island are very different to those on the continent, yet we're prohibited from following that path because of this "union" we're in, one we have voted to leave, but did not vote to join.

We joined the EEC, a trade union, not this political EU. All this talk of "power!" "Governance". That's not what we signed up to initially and is not what we want now. We could easily become part of a European trade union that continues to represent it's members in negotiating with these other "superpower blocs", so-called, without all the political attachments required of being represented.

That's all we wanted. Others however, prefer this concept of a "federal Europe", something we are opposed to.

It's a very big leap from a political EU to a federal EU.

 

[Vic]

Actually it's globalist and narrated by those who want to leave an isolated European bloc to trade openly and have better relations with Europe AND the outside world in decisions dictated to by it's people, not by career politicians in Brussels.

But it's easier to dismiss this by ignoring it and just shouting "racist" at everybody.

Not at everybody.

But if by "the people" you mean those who would still vote Leave, give me the career politicians in Brussels anytime.