Another new Brexit thread

[Ancient Citizen]

That's never been said before.

Actually, based on all the research before and after the referendum, the better the education the more likely people were to vote Remain. So it's statistically likely that more Leavers are stupid than Remainers.

But "It's statistically unlikely that all leavers are stupid" seems a pretty stupid concept. Now 'stubborn" and "sensitive about the wisdom of their choice...."

As to tactics, providing evidence (recession this year, pound tanked, car industry wrecked) doesn't seem to work, so that's the "starting position" buggered.

The only industry that appears to be affected by Brexit is the car industry, not pharmaceuticals, IT, textiles,
chemicals or the the many, many others, the only one mentioned with any regularity appears to be the car industry.
Now, I don't suppose it could be the fact that diesel sales, which virtually all manufacturers are still tooled up for,
have dropped like a stone, or that, even petrol vehicle sales are slowing, no, it must be Brexit.
The German car industry is suffering badly, they've not voted to leave.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...nt-german-factory-orders-suffer-biggest-drop/
It's very easy to check the worldwide state the car industry, basically, it's on its arse.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...will-fall-more-than-4-million-in-2019-report/
https://www.businessinsider.com/automobile-car-industry-production-global-recession-2019-2

So yeah, it's all down to Brexit.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Even if both are true, the case you’ve made for Remain there is still stronger than Leave.

I don't think you've quite grasped the irony, both are not true.
The point being made is the futility of of the constant dissection of the reasons why, rather than simple acceptance
of the result. These wild conspiracy theories,used as a refusal to accept what happened are not only laughable,
but totally pointless.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Not as much as "we won you lost" which is all brexit clings to. Appalling, from the very start, never ever "funny", except in the sense of "funny where the millions backing brexit come from" funny how the " police investigation into Aaron Banks has made no progress", funny how adamant the brexits are against a referendum re-run, seeing they scream so loud about "democracy" FFS.... A non-negotiable foundation of democracy is ACCOUNTABILITY, absolutely no trace of accountability in the entire brexit hierarchy, blatant liars welcomed back into the cabinet, like a malign osmosis,
A PM with a majority of ONE, but the backing of the brexit barons is pissing on the very notion of democratic governance, and the vast majority of the population.
Revoke revoke ffs revoke, lance the boil, cut out the cancer, take the blinkers off and wake up ffs, a pox on brexit and it's backers

Well, after 5 minutes trying to grasp exactly what is being said here, the only thing I can concur with
is, it's certainly funny.

 

[Vic]

You make excellent points, but about how far through your post do you imagine most leavers will either stop reading or feel patronised? Have you considered that it may be this mechanism that gives rise to what you identify as stubbornness / stupidity, and therefore diminishes the effectiveness of your argument?

Yes but I'm not sure how to get round it.

The better the argument, the more la-la-la the responses. Shouting doesn't work.

I usually make excellent points. I know when that happens because nobody replies.

Like the challenge to cite someone from the leave campaign who said we'd leave without a deal.

 

[Vic]

On your last paragraph what’s Germany’s excuse for all that ( save for the pound to show I am not stupid )

An excellent point. I'm just going out but the obvious immediate response would be "we started it". Brexit is bad for all of Europe. I'm not sure "wrecked" is quite the right word for their carmakers - and it would be bad news for us if we still think they'll demand a deal.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Like the challenge to cite someone from the leave campaign who said we'd leave without a deal.

Very easy, that one, take a look at the options on the ballot paper that we all used.
Campaigns are simply that, attempts to persuade, some work, some don't, but the nitty gritty is the
actual choice on offer, 'Leave with a deal' wasn't on offer.
So what X said, or Y said, is simply hot air, from both sides, the physical choice was stark, and very, very simple.
Ballots must qualify the choices on offer, unfortunately your perceived qualification wasn't on it.

 

[inbetween]

Nations around the globe will fall into recession or will do badly because of a number of contributing factors. It’s important to work out the specific reasoning as to why. It’s also possible that it’s more than one reason.

Take the car industry for example, sure it’s true that diesel is a large part of it struggling across Europe and this country but then it’s also true that Brexit has played a huge part in that.

Our losses as a country have been sudden and sharp since 2016 and our performance as being one of the fastest growing economies in Europe in 2015, to one of the slowest IS a direct result of Brexit, nothing else can possibly have done that.

To give you an idea on the below and how big 2%-2.5% is, it’s over 3rd of what was lost in 2008, which is a huge number considering we’ve not yet even left and this is based on the idea of us leaving. When you fact in the idea of us leaving with No Deal has increased in likelihood and we’re now in record breaking pound shrinking territory, actually leaving with a hard Brexit is going to absolutely fuck us.

Our losses haven't been sudden and sharp, yes they have fallen but they have fallen in line with the rest of Europe as expected because we are part of Europe whether in the EU or not (as remainers keep saying).

Countries outside of Europe meanwhile have been bouyant, China is suffering an amazingly low 6.2%, US is 2.3%, India 5.8%.

The only large market seeing big problems with growth is the one we are desperate to remain a part of.

No deal or not, we have to trade with the EU yes but are we going to see 3%+ growth by remaining... Pft do me a favour. EU growth hasn't pushed past 3% for 15 years. The Euro currency crisis and subsequent exposure of those countries to it post-2008 brought it down to -6%!

Not arguing for Brexit but let's not pretend that a rosy utopia of economic prosperity will exist in the EU for decades.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don't think you've quite grasped the irony, both are not true.
The point being made is the futility of of the constant dissection of the reasons why, rather than simple acceptance
of the result. These wild conspiracy theories,used as a refusal to accept what happened are not only laughable,
but totally pointless.

No no, I did get it. I feel your post highlighted why even when playing the stereotype of a remain voter, to take the piss, you still make a good argument for remaining.

 

[Neville Kneville]

The only industry that appears to be affected by Brexit is the car industry, not pharmaceuticals, IT, textiles,
chemicals or the the many, many others, the only one mentioned with any regularity appears to be the car industry.
Now, I don't suppose it could be the fact that diesel sales, which virtually all manufacturers are still tooled up for,
have dropped like a stone, or that, even petrol vehicle sales are slowing, no, it must be Brexit.
The German car industry is suffering badly, they've not voted to leave.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...nt-german-factory-orders-suffer-biggest-drop/
It's very easy to check the worldwide state the car industry, basically, it's on its arse.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...will-fall-more-than-4-million-in-2019-report/
https://www.businessinsider.com/automobile-car-industry-production-global-recession-2019-2

So yeah, it's all down to Brexit.

What about the music & film industry etc ?

Look them up.

 

[Ban-jani]

Our losses haven't been sudden and sharp, yes they have fallen but they have fallen in line with the rest of Europe as expected because we are part of Europe whether in the EU or not (as remainers keep saying).

Countries outside of Europe meanwhile have been bouyant, China is suffering an amazingly low 6.2%, US is 2.3%, India 5.8%.

The only large market seeing big problems with growth is the one we are desperate to remain a part of.

No deal or not, we have to trade with the EU yes but are we going to see 3%+ growth by remaining... Pft do me a favour. EU growth hasn't pushed past 3% for 15 years. The Euro currency crisis and subsequent exposure of those countries to it post-2008 brought it down to -6%!

Not arguing for Brexit but let's not pretend that a rosy utopia of economic prosperity will exist in the EU for decades.

Yes it has been. We were in the top 3 fastest growing in 2015, within a year we were 2nd bottom to only Italy.

Rather than concentrating on those in the EU that are struggling, maybe see the benefits for the UK. The average is a net 4% of GDP, as a benefit of our membership.

Also, it’s interesting you mentioning those markets, those markets that we trade with currently whilst we are a member and that we won’t trade with on October 1st as it stands.

Sounds like you are arguing for Brexit.

 

[cibaman]

Very easy, that one, take a look at the options on the ballot paper that we all used.
Campaigns are simply that, attempts to persuade, some work, some don't, but the nitty gritty is the
actual choice on offer, 'Leave with a deal' wasn't on offer.
So what X said, or Y said, is simply hot air, from both sides, the physical choice was stark, and very, very simple.
Ballots must qualify the choices on offer, unfortunately your perceived qualification wasn't on it.

If the ERG believed that we’d be out by now

 

[BobKowalski]

Very easy, that one, take a look at the options on the ballot paper that we all used.
Campaigns are simply that, attempts to persuade, some work, some don't, but the nitty gritty is the
actual choice on offer, 'Leave with a deal' wasn't on offer.
So what X said, or Y said, is simply hot air, from both sides, the physical choice was stark, and very, very simple.
Ballots must qualify the choices on offer, unfortunately your perceived qualification wasn't on it.

Total bollocks. Ballot papers in an election just offer you a name and party ID. In a referendum it’s usually a binary ‘yes’ or ‘no’ choice. Neither detail the ideology or the manifesto or the competing campaign choices. We make our choice on the ballot paper based on the campaign and the information/manifesto. The Leave campaign specifically promised no material change except positives ones and even stated that we would secure a deal prior to leaving. Any suggestion that we would leave without a deal by the Remain campaign was derided as ‘Project Fear’.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

We did get a deal. The fact that we are now faced with the prospect of no deal is the fault of the deal-makers and parliament. If no deal happens then those who conspired to thwart other versions of brexit in the hope that they could force us to remain should perhaps look first to themselves rather than Farage, Boris and the ERG, which simply don't have the numbers to get us to where we are now.

 

[inbetween]

Yes it has been. We were in the top 3 fastest growing in 2015, within a year we were 2nd bottom to only Italy.

Rather than concentrating on those in the EU that are struggling, maybe see the benefits for the UK. The average is a net 4% of GDP, as a benefit of our membership.

Also, it’s interesting you mentioning those markets, those markets that we trade with currently whilst we are a member and that we won’t trade with on October 1st as it stands.

Sounds like you are arguing for Brexit.

Of course there are benefits but when you look at it as a whole, to increase growth you need to target the areas that are growing. Currently it is arguable whether we are able to according to the full potential given we have no control over trade policy.

People keep comparing the car industry just as an example but the car industry is the worst example. The car industry in Europe is essentially defined by what Germany sells to the rest of the world. We have already seen that many non-EU car manufacturers are moving back to their home countries because the market is served well enough from home.

As an aside, you compare us to Italy as one of the fastest growest nations 4 years ago but look at Italy now, they are effectively in recession, what went wrong?

If you wanted to start a business, why in gods name would anyone think that union with Italy would be our best bet? I'm all for preserving what we have but what about everywhere else? No-one has really analysed what we are potentially missing out on.

Now I'm not arguing that we should leave, only to say that it is wrong to say that Brexit is causing economic pain whilst Europeans are sat counting their money. Despite Brexit, we are actually in a comparably good situation and that is primarily because we resisted integrating into the great European project.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Total bollocks. Ballot papers in an election just offer you a name and party ID. In a referendum it’s usually a binary ‘yes’ or ‘no’ choice. Neither detail the ideology or the manifesto or the competing campaign choices. We make our choice on the ballot paper based on the campaign and the information/manifesto. The Leave campaign specifically promised no material change except positives ones and even stated that we would secure a deal prior to leaving. Any suggestion that we would leave without a deal by the Remain campaign was derided as ‘Project Fear’.

Fully agree and Dominic Raddd got fact checked on this recently and came up well short. The concept of no deal was dismissed by leavers as something that would never happen - therefore there is no mandate for it. It is there responsibility to agree a deal or to accept they failed.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Fully agree and Dominic Raddd got fact checked on this recently and came up well short. The concept of no deal was dismissed by leavers as something that would never happen - therefore there is no mandate for it. It is there responsibility to agree a deal or to accept they failed.

Eh ?

How can you agree a deal if you give remainers the option to vote down any deal again and again

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Eh ?

How can you agree a deal if you give remainers the option to vote down any deal again and again

Maybe leavers should have thought of this before promising the easiest deal in the history of deals, with only upside and ruling out no deal before we all voted!

Leavers need to accept this is a mess and was always going to be a mess given the massive scale of over promising pre-referendum. And now massive under-delivering post referendum we are where we are. This is nothing to do with remainers - this is everything to do with promising the completely un-deliverable.

 

[smudgedj]

Eh ?

How can you agree a deal if you give remainers the option to vote down any deal again and again

Remainers blame Leavers for Remainers remaining.

 

[Ban-jani]

Of course there are benefits but when you look at it as a whole, to increase growth you need to target the areas that are growing. Currently it is arguable whether we are able to according to the full potential given we have no control over trade policy.

People keep comparing the car industry just as an example but the car industry is the worst example. The car industry in Europe is essentially defined by what Germany sells to the rest of the world. We have already seen that many non-EU car manufacturers are moving back to their home countries because the market is served well enough from home.

As an aside, you compare us to Italy as one of the fastest growest nations 4 years ago but look at Italy now, they are effectively in recession, what went wrong?

If you wanted to start a business, why in gods name would anyone think that union with Italy would be our best bet? I'm all for preserving what we have but what about everywhere else? No-one has really analysed what we are potentially missing out on.

Now I'm not arguing that we should leave, only to say that it is wrong to say that Brexit is causing economic pain whilst Europeans are sat counting their money. Despite Brexit, we are actually in a comparably good situation and that is primarily because we resisted integrating into the great European project.

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve said on Italy. I said we were one of the fastest and then became 2nd slowest, just pipped to last spot by them. I wasn’t saying they were one of the fastest 4 years ago.

The EU’s entire position is to act on behalf of its members. That is to trade with the best markets and to ensure prosperity across the continent. Now they aren’t always successful and nations will always fall into recession from time to time, it’s just what happens unfortunately, but the EU’s purpose on trade is to ensure success for Europe.

I think the important thing is to look at how good we had it, as opposed to how other members have. The fact is we were estimated to be better off, despite the contributions made. You’re right to say we were in a great position because we resisted full integration. That’s not a condemnation of the EU though, that’s what Boris SHOULD have been talking about when he spouted “cake and eat it”.

I think you and I will both agree that whatever benefits there were to leaving have quickly disappeared and we’re left with a pointless Withdrawal Agreement, that keeps us locked in without having a say, or a no deal which would be a catastrophe on all levels.

We’ve had a go, we’ve fucked it and now is the time to revoke A50 and wait for a time in future when a party can come up with a specific plan to leave and implement it. That being said, I’m uncomfortable with it being revoked without another vote but we’re running out of ideas.

 

[Ban-jani]

Remainers blame Leavers for Remainers remaining.

Leavers blame remainers for what leavers want being shit.