Another new Brexit thread

[Ancient Citizen]

For instance I think it is in the national interest that Old Trafford should be reduced to rubble and replaced with a Disney style public toilet, with urinals depicting Alex Ferguson and Paddy Crerand.

Amended to reflect a broader viewpoint;)

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Yep, and funnily enough the leave campaign decided that such a fundamental issue was not worthy of mention. Not when they were busy having fun talking about fantasties and lies anyway.

Rubbish. I don’t recall the leaflet from the government, which was advocating remain, raising the issue of the problem of the GFA.

I don’t recall any detailed debates about Northern Ireland or warning from remainer side at the time of the referendum. I understand the issue was given airings in Ireland but not on the mainland

. I have also been on this thread long enough to know that this issue wasn’t debated on the original brexit thread either, prior to the vote. Those who were on that original thread will hopefully recall it was never really debated in any detail ( if at all)

The truth of the matter is the issue of brexit and it’s impact for remaining is actually a very good reason for remaining and like so many things on the remain side it was never raised at all as

They were too arrogant and thought people would vote remain, so they didn’t need to try; and
It’s easier and more fun to call people thick and racist.

Like soft brexit , the issue of Northern Ireland is a post result hook that the remain side have jumped onto now like they always knew it was going to be a problem. Well, you should have advocated your point at the time of the referendum not after, if you were all so clever as to realise the issue.

Btw Am still awaiting Gibraltar, but you are probably saving that chip once Ireland is resolved.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Personally I don’t think he has a bag

Best thing he could do with the bag, is put it over his head.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Rubbish. I don’t recall the leaflet from the government, which was advocating remain, raising the issue of the problem of the GFA.

I don’t recall any detailed debates about Northern Ireland or warning from remainer side at the time of the referendum. I understand the issue was given airings in Ireland but not on the mainland

. I have also been on this thread long enough to know that this issue wasn’t debated on the original brexit thread either, prior to the vote. Those who were on that original thread will hopefully recall it was never really debated in any detail ( if at all)

The truth of the matter is the issue of brexit and it’s impact for remaining is actually a very good reason for remaining and like so many things on the remain side it was never raised at all as

They were too arrogant and thought people would vote remain, so they didn’t need to try; and
It’s easier and more fun to call people thick and racist.

Like soft brexit , the issue of Northern Ireland is a post result hook that the remain side have jumped onto now like they always knew it was going to be a problem. Well, you should have advocated your point at the time of the referendum not after, if you were all so clever as to realise the issue.

Btw Am still awaiting Gibraltar, but you are probably saving that chip once Ireland is resolved.

Should have asked us. We had an inkling it may be a problem.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

And at some point you have to realise that by voting for Brexit we have created space for them to exploit. This isn’t about ‘scaring people’. It’s about pointing out the inevitablity of where actions can lead. The status quo worked because enough people on both sides got enough out of it to be content with it. By threatening to change that status quo you change that delicate balance and you create space for the fringe to grow.

Yep and imagine if we said preventing brexit will give rise to violence by pro democracy movements and increase far right and give fuel to anti immigration groups which will resort to violence .

To quote your words back to you

By threatening to overturn a democratic result you change the delicate balance and you create space for this fringe to grow.

The real truth here is simply this.

Those who hold views so strongly that they choose to resort to violence to achieve their aims whether in Ireland , or in the uk or anywhere in the world are terrorists and terrorism should never hold democracy to ransom.

Paris Berlin and Brussels will not be affected by the return to violence it will be us , and they should be bending over backwards to accommodate a solution. What you and the eu seem to be suggesting is the preservation of a common customs duties top trumps human life. It doesn’t

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Should have asked us. We had an inkling it may be a problem.

Yes I know !!

I understand it was given a proper airing and debate. This side of the Irish Sea we were busy talking about racism and immigration. Had it been properly debated and raised I think a few more would have voted remain.

 

[west didsblue]

James Cleverly was on Breakfast TV this morning saying that keeping the backstop is more likely to cause a return to the troubles. This seems to be a general tactic of this government to bend facts round to become the opposite of what they really are. Can't decide whether it's Orwellian, Trumpian or both.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

The ‘undemocratic’ line is largely political spin and if the U.K. Govt is ‘genuinely’ concerned then ask the people of NI to vote on whether they want to retain the backstop and maintain regulatory alignment with the EU and the RoI as an insurance against a hard border as the rest of the U.K. diverges. If they vote it down then by definition they accept a hard border and customs infrastructure.

The GFA was ratified by an all Ireland referendum so anything that impacts on it should also be voted on in the same way.

Problem with that is, it was an all Ireland referendum. How do you get by the will of the people in the Republic.
Assume The North votes effectively for a hard border. Are you saying that the South gets a similar vote? I couldn't see that going down well within the UK in general.
I think you are definitely thinking along the right lines but there would be a lot of devil in the detail I'm sure.

 

[Metal Biker]

Rubbish. I don’t recall the leaflet from the government, which was advocating remain, raising the issue of the problem of the GFA.

I don’t recall any detailed debates about Northern Ireland or warning from remainer side at the time of the referendum. I understand the issue was given airings in Ireland but not on the mainland

. I have also been on this thread long enough to know that this issue wasn’t debated on the original brexit thread either, prior to the vote. Those who were on that original thread will hopefully recall it was never really debated in any detail ( if at all)

The truth of the matter is the issue of brexit and it’s impact for remaining is actually a very good reason for remaining and like so many things on the remain side it was never raised at all as

They were too arrogant and thought people would vote remain, so they didn’t need to try; and
It’s easier and more fun to call people thick and racist.

Like soft brexit , the issue of Northern Ireland is a post result hook that the remain side have jumped onto now like they always knew it was going to be a problem. Well, you should have advocated your point at the time of the referendum not after, if you were all so clever as to realise the issue.

Btw Am still awaiting Gibraltar, but you are probably saving that chip once Ireland is resolved.

I still have that leaflet and just checked.

You're right, it doesn't.

 

[west didsblue]

Yep and imagine if we said preventing brexit will give rise to violence by pro democracy movements and increase far right and give fuel to anti immigration groups which will resort to violence .

To quote your words back to you

By threatening to overturn a democratic result you change the delicate balance and you create space for this fringe to grow.

The real truth here is simply this.

Those who hold views so strongly that they choose to resort to violence to achieve their aims whether in Ireland , or in the uk or anywhere in the world are terrorists and terrorism should never hold democracy to ransom.

Paris Berlin and Brussels will not be affected by the return to violence it will be us , and they should be bending over backwards to accommodate a solution. What you and the eu seem to be suggesting is the preservation of a common customs duties top trumps human life. It doesn’t

It's a post result hook that should have been taken into account by the Leave campaign by not insisting on ridiculous red lines that would make it a problem. If they had realistic aims like CM2.0 or Norway+ like they said in their campaign we wouldn't be in this mess. But no, they wanted a Little England Brexit that will screw us all except the disaster capitalists and the small minority of businesses that will benefit from it.
It's really pathetic that the Leavers on here are busy shifting blame for the mess we're in to anyone but themselves and the bullshitters who hoodwinked them.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Tbh mate I think the link from the current upsurge in violence has much more to do with the lack of govt in stormont than Brexit (which hasn't happened yet). The IRA splinter groups like the continuity lot etc never actually accepted the GFA anyway. The way in which some ignore the fact that (NI) government is in a worse state than just prior to the imposition of direct rule in the 70's and choose to use the mess caused by the collapse of Stormont to back their brexit argument is at best wrong, and at worst malevolent. Powersharing at stormont by a functional govt was a much bigger cornerstone of the GFA than anyone's EU membership.

Quite possibly the first thing I've really agreed with you on.
The thing about the DUP and the likes of the CIRA is that neither of them supported the GFA.
Ironically Paisley eventually got on board and was part of a successful Assembly. Since him and McGuinness are gone the DUP seem to have gone back into their entrenched view of things. My suspicion is that direct rule suits them at the moment as it distances them from the GFA and leans back to their Union view of the future.

This void as you say is a huge contributing factor to the unrest brewing and the confidence of the likes of the CIRA increasing.

I know some on here have strong views that the GFA is being used as a weapon against Brexit. (I'm not one of them)
I do feel and I'm sure a lot North and South of the border feel that the DUP in particular have used Brexit as a weapon aginst the GFA.
Not planned obviously, but pure opportunism.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It's a post result hook that should have been taken into account by the Leave campaign by not insisting on ridiculous red lines that would make it a problem. If they had realistic aims like CM2.0 or Norway+ like they said in their campaign we wouldn't be in this mess. But no, they wanted a Little England Brexit that will screw us all except the disaster capitalists and the small minority of businesses that will benefit from it.

What a ridiculous post

Are you actually not following events ?

We could never get to that position once we voted to leave as the eu would not and still do not allow us to talk about a trade deal

Do you not remember the bit where the eu said we will NOT talk a trade deal with You until the withdrawal act is agreed and signed and 40 bill deposited in our account.

We may end up with Norway or customs 2.0 but unfortunately your good friends at the eu are not interested in talking about it.

Btw I hope you realise that even if we do leave with a deal , the withdrawal agreement or an amended version that still means we leave with no trade deal. There is no legally binding trade deal going forward as the eu would not allow it.

 

[aguero93:20]

Quite possibly the first thing I've really agreed with you on.
The thing about the DUP and the likes of the CIRA is that neither of them supported the GFA.
Ironically Paisley eventually got on board and was part of a successful Assembly. Since him and McGuinness are gone the DUP seem to have gone back into their entrenched view of things. My suspicion is that direct rule suits them at the moment as it distances them from the GFA and leans back to their Union view of the future.

This void as you say is a huge contributing factor to the unrest brewing and the confidence of the likes of the CIRA increasing.

I know some on here have strong views that the GFA is being used as a weapon against Brexit. (I'm not one of them)
I do feel and I'm sure a lot North and South of the border feel that the DUP in particular have used Brexit as a weapon aginst the GFA.
Not planned obviously, but pure opportunism.

We could definitely do with Paisley and McGuiness now. Never thought I'd say that tbf.

 

[Metal Biker]

What a ridiculous post

Are you actually not following events ?

We could never get to that position once we voted to leave as the eu would not and still do not allow us to talk about a trade deal

Do you not remember the bit where the eu said we will NOT talk a trade deal with You until the withdrawal act is agreed and signed and 40 bill deposited in our account.

We may end up with Norway or customs 2.0 but unfortunately your good friends at the eu are not interested in talking about it.

Btw I hope you realise that even if we do leave with a deal , the withdrawal agreement or an amended version that still means we leave with no trade deal. There is no legally binding trade deal going forward as the eu would not allow it.

People often forget this crucial element of how frustrating things have been.

Not only that but we've been prohibited from making and arranging post-brexit trade deals until we got the situation with the EU sorted first. To them it makes it look like we've not prepared for anything. No. We've been prohibited from preparing by the EU who wanted their arrangements with the UK concluded. Medicines, food imports etc could have been organised before we officially left by concluding these non-EU trade deals with other nations, but EU said no, deal with us first and then you can start making your own trade deals.

 

[aguero93:20]

People often forget this crucial element of how frustrating things have been.

We've been prohibited from making and arranging post-brexit trade deals until we got the situation with the EU sorted first. To them it makes it look like we've not prepared for anything. No. We've been prohibited from preparing by the EU who wanted their arrangements with the UK concluded. Medicines, food imports etc could have been organised before we officially left by concluding these non-EU trade deals with other nations, but EU said no, deal with us first and then you can start making your own trade deals.

Other nations and blocs said no, actually. They want to know where you stand before they set their negotiating position out. Vague positions like 'alternative arrangements' don't cut it at that level. Also, Brexit was voted on 3 years ago. Trade deals take 7 years at least.

 

[aguero93:20]

Rubbish.

Their campaign of violence, thuggery and unlawfulness has never stopped and nor will it and all that whilst members of the EU, SM and CU.

Spin the wheel Bob and lets have yet another scare story for the day we can discuss.

We have done food and medicine this week again so something else to keep it fresh if you can.

They've been quiet for the last 20 years as they had zero support in NI and the border counties and the Provos were sitting on them. This has created a situation where people are beginning to sympathise with them again and their babysitters are thinking about a return to violence themselves.

 

[Metal Biker]

Other nations and blocs said no, actually. They want to know where you stand before they set their negotiating position out. Vague positions like 'alternative arrangements' don't cut it at that level. Also, Brexit was voted on 3 years ago. Trade deals take 7 years at least.

Which ones said "no"? And it still doesn't dismiss the fact the EU prohibted us from beginning these trade negotiations with other nations.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

US for a start.
Won’t start talking turkey until after we have left.

 

[Sir Joe Aguero]

Any idea how Brexit will affect house prices? I thought the uncertainty & any teething issues (to put it lightly) would lead to a fall in house prices, but I'm guessing this will be canceled out by a weak £ and inflation.

 

[west didsblue]

What a ridiculous post

Are you actually not following events ?

We could never get to that position once we voted to leave as the eu would not and still do not allow us to talk about a trade deal

Do you not remember the bit where the eu said we will NOT talk a trade deal with You until the withdrawal act is agreed and signed and 40 bill deposited in our account.

We may end up with Norway or customs 2.0 but unfortunately your good friends at the eu are not interested in talking about it.

Btw I hope you realise that even if we do leave with a deal , the withdrawal agreement or an amended version that still means we leave with no trade deal. There is no legally binding trade deal going forward as the eu would not allow it.

I think it's you that's not keeping up. By insisting that leaving the EU meant leaving the SM and CU, we got ourselves into a position where Norway+ or CM2.0 aren't possible options. We have said we're open to being part of a Free Trade Zone but we're not open to following the rules of the single market - that's cakeism for you. This intransigent stance on our red lines has led to the need for the backstop that we proposed and the EU accepted. Our position is deliberately ambiguous so that our government can blame the EU when it all goes tits up.