Another new Brexit thread

[mcfc1632]

Probably true. A far better method of obtaining Brexit under your political system would be running with it as a sole objective in a GE and gaining a working majority at parliamentary level for a particular kind of Brexit though. Whether that'll ever happen is another matter.

It would need the Brexit Party to win a majority in a GE and that is not going to happen anytime soon

So Brexit happens now - or not at all

 

[mcfc1632]

You’ve missed my point.

Leave parties such as the BP will stand on a manifesto that’s primarily for leaving the EU, at future GE’s.

You’ll be able to vote for them with them promising to leave.

No I didn't

You seemed to have veered the exchange

In response to you saying:

“……….so let’s remain and have another crack further down the line.”

I responded

If we don't leave now there will not be another crack further down the line


You know that

Simple statement of fact – a single issue party will not be elected nor another referendum called in your lifetime

So Brexit happens now or never – there is no ‘another crack’ – as if we can just defer this. Remainers would like to think that it can be presented as deferral – they in fact just want it reversed

 

[mcfc1632]

The EU and Dublin are not going to remove the backstop unless and until we provide a clear and workable alternative. We can’t do so hence we are stuck with the backstop. People can blame who they want. It ain’t changing shit.

Interesting, probably true - but not really relevant to my post. My post was an attempt to answer a question from someone else asking why the backstop is being referred to as 'undemocratic'

 

[Ban-jani]

No I didn't

You seemed to have veered the exchange

In response to you saying:

“……….so let’s remain and have another crack further down the line.”

I responded



Simple statement of fact – a single issue party will not be elected nor another referendum called in your lifetime

So Brexit happens now or never – there is no ‘another crack’ – as if we can just defer this. Remainers would like to think that it can be presented as deferral – they in fact just want it reversed

This is a meaningless argument as we agree but you said referendum, we definitely won’t ever have another referendum on anything, thankfully.

You will get the chance to vote for the BP in future but I agree with you that they won’t get a majority so yes we won’t leave again if we don’t this time.

 

[BobKowalski]

Interesting, probably true - but not really relevant to my post. My post was an attempt to answer a question from someone else asking why the backstop is being referred to as 'undemocratic'

The ‘undemocratic’ line is largely political spin and if the U.K. Govt is ‘genuinely’ concerned then ask the people of NI to vote on whether they want to retain the backstop and maintain regulatory alignment with the EU and the RoI as an insurance against a hard border as the rest of the U.K. diverges. If they vote it down then by definition they accept a hard border and customs infrastructure.

The GFA was ratified by an all Ireland referendum so anything that impacts on it should also be voted on in the same way.

 

[cibaman]

This is a meaningless argument as we agree but you said referendum, we definitely won’t ever have another referendum on anything, thankfully.

You will get the chance to vote for the BP in future but I agree with you that they won’t get a majority so yes we won’t leave again if we don’t this time.

I suppose it depends on how you define “this time”. I can see the current conflict dragging on for a couple of years either side of a general election. I don’t really see it dying down and then starting up again because I don’t see “this time” ending. If we leave without a deal then we spend the next few years trying to get a deal. If we leave by revoking A50 or as a result of a soft leave v Remain referendum then the leavers will fight on. And I really do believe that if we don’t leave now then no deal will become the Tory default position (dressed up as “we will leave with no deal unless the eu make an acceptable offer”).

 

[Blue Hefner]

I think that stance is unlikely in fairness, they may try and sell the 10s of thousands bollocks again in a different way and have a hardened stance on all things EU. A few empty pledges to be disruptive towards the federal EU direction. I’m not sure trying to grab bxp votes at the expense of remain votes would be sensible.

The Tories are pretty much fucked unless Boris pulls something out of the bag, personally I think his bag is empty.

Is metaphoric bag has been empty from day 1 of the leadership campaign. Like his predecessor, he now has to accept reality* and the difficulty it causes when met with fantasy and a country with diminished status

*I suspect he always knew the reality, he just pretended not to and got away with banging on about ‘belief’ and being ‘positive’ for the entire 8 week campaign

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I lived in the era of the troubles in Northern Ireland. On one side you had a section of the population who wanted a united Ireland and on the other a section who wanted to stay in the UK. The era was an awful time for all concerned and let's not forget we on the mainland suffered as well. It looked like The Good Friday Agreement had solved most of the problems and we have had a mostly peaceful time since.

I fear that Brexit will see a return to those days. We are already seeing an increase in the types of violence that were common in those days and the same divisions along sectarian lines. One section wanting to remain closely aligned to Ireland and one section wanting to break away.

Tbh mate I think the link from the current upsurge in violence has much more to do with the lack of govt in stormont than Brexit (which hasn't happened yet). The IRA splinter groups like the continuity lot etc never actually accepted the GFA anyway. The way in which some ignore the fact that (NI) government is in a worse state than just prior to the imposition of direct rule in the 70's and choose to use the mess caused by the collapse of Stormont to back their brexit argument is at best wrong, and at worst malevolent. Powersharing at stormont by a functional govt was a much bigger cornerstone of the GFA than anyone's EU membership.

 

[blueinsa]

Tbh mate I think the link from the current upsurge in violence has much more to do with the lack of govt in stormont than Brexit (which hasn't happened yet). The IRA splinter groups like the continuity lot etc never actually accepted the GFA anyway. The way in which some ignore the fact that (NI) government is in a worse state than just prior to the imposition of direct rule in the 70's and choose to use the mess caused by the collapse of Stormont to back their brexit argument is at best wrong, and at worst malevolent. Powersharing at stormont by a functional govt was a much bigger cornerstone of the GFA than anyone's EU membership.

The imaginary picture of the CIRA sat round a table demanding terrorist action over their lack of access to the single market actually tickles me.

 

[BobKowalski]

The merry go round of futility as the same things keep being endlessly repeated. It’s diplomacy on a loop.

“On the Irish border issue, German officials say they cannot “throw Ireland under the bus” by proposing even a relatively minor compromise on the backstop, such as introducing a long time limit such as 10-12 years.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-boris-johnsons-brexit-meeting-angela-merkel/

 

[Ban-jani]

The merry go round of futility as the same things keep being endlessly repeated. It’s diplomacy on a loop.

“On the Irish border issue, German officials say they cannot “throw Ireland under the bus” by proposing even a relatively minor compromise on the backstop, such as introducing a long time limit such as 10-12 years.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...-boris-johnsons-brexit-meeting-angela-merkel/

Disappointing.

 

[BobKowalski]

The imaginary picture of the CIRA sat round a table demanding terrorist action over their lack of access to the single market actually tickles me.

They will seek to exploit uncertainty of which economic uncertainty is a part. Given the reaction to the bombing at the border in the Irish press I don’t think they are in the least bit ‘tickled’. Not sure the police officers who escaped death are feeling ‘tickled’ either.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

I lived in the era of the troubles in Northern Ireland. On one side you had a section of the population who wanted a united Ireland and on the other a section who wanted to stay in the UK. The era was an awful time for all concerned and let's not forget we on the mainland suffered as well. It looked like The Good Friday Agreement had solved most of the problems and we have had a mostly peaceful time since.

I fear that Brexit will see a return to those days. We are already seeing an increase in the types of violence that were common in those days and the same divisions along sectarian lines. One section wanting to remain closely aligned to Ireland and one section wanting to break away.

Yep, and funnily enough the leave campaign decided that such a fundamental issue was not worthy of mention. Not when they were busy having fun talking about fantasties and lies anyway.

 

[blueinsa]

They will seek to exploit uncertainty of which economic uncertainty is a part. Given the reaction to the bombing at the border in the Irish press I don’t think they are in the least bit ‘tickled’. Not sure the police officers who escaped death are feeling ‘tickled’ either.

They have never nor will they ever accept the GFA, British rule or anything other than a united Ireland governed by Dublin.

Bringing them into this debate as yet another way of trying to scare folk into your way of thinking is frankly ridiculous and just wont work.

At some point, leave or remain as im frankly past caring the use of scare stories as a way of changing opinion will be seen for what it is.....fucking useless.

 

[Ban-jani]

Tory Chairman James “not so” Cleverly has said the Tories aren’t releasing the full no deal Brexit warnings, of which some were leaked because “people wouldn’t understand the nature of it”.

Surely if there’s nothing to worry about they’d quash people’s anxiety?

 

[BobKowalski]

They have never nor will they ever accept the GFA, British rule or anything other than a united Ireland governed by Dublin.

Bringing them into this debate as yet another way of trying to scare folk into your way of thinking is frankly ridiculous and just wont work.

At some point, leave or remain as im frankly past caring the use of scare stories as a way of changing opinion will be seen for what it is.....fucking useless.

And at some point you have to realise that by voting for Brexit we have created space for them to exploit. This isn’t about ‘scaring people’. It’s about pointing out the inevitablity of where actions can lead. The status quo worked because enough people on both sides got enough out of it to be content with it. By threatening to change that status quo you change that delicate balance and you create space for the fringe to grow.

 

[blueinsa]

And at some point you have to realise that by voting for Brexit we have created space for them to exploit. This isn’t about ‘scaring people’. It’s about pointing out the inevitablity of where actions can lead. The status quo worked because enough people on both sides got enough out of it to be content with it. By threatening to change that status quo you change that delicate balance and you create space for the fringe to grow.

Rubbish.

Their campaign of violence, thuggery and unlawfulness has never stopped and nor will it and all that whilst members of the EU, SM and CU.

Spin the wheel Bob and lets have yet another scare story for the day we can discuss.

We have done food and medicine this week again so something else to keep it fresh if you can.

 

[BobKowalski]

Rubbish.

Their campaign of violence, thuggery and unlawfulness has never stopped and nor will it and all that whilst members of the EU, SM and CU.

Spin the wheel Bob and lets have yet another scare story for the day we can discuss.

We have done food and medicine this week again so something else to keep it fresh if you can.

There are none so blind as those that will not see I guess.

 

[aguero93:20]

This is true however the difference in dissenting voices and politicians/remainers actively saying they won’t let no deal happen is an extra step. Now we will never know if this would have panned out differently if the EU thought the chances of a no deal were higher, even slightly so. It’s why if by some strange outcome we left and things do turn to shit I told you so by the remainers won’t work.

3 years of you’re wrong has been a futile and pointless exercise. The thread only acts as a study of human behaviour in the main.

Mate, the no deal is better than a bad deal line was only ever true for the EU.

 

[hilts]

The EU anticipates it will be no deal. The German Govt has briefed it will be no deal. The EU has prepped for no deal. The EU will prioritise the integrity of the Single Market rather than grant the U.K. ‘special dispensation’ to enjoy the benefits and flout the rules just to avoid no deal. As Cameron found out there is a limit to what the EU will accept and we have reached it. The EU is bound together by Treaty and governed by rules which proscribe what the E27 countries can do and cannot do.

Right now we are in a position where we accepted the December 2017 protocols to advance the talks and we are now reneging on that commitment and are demanding we should not be bound by constraints that other countries abide by. We are threatening to close our borders on 31st Oct despite not having the capacity to do this other than by creating chaos. We are threatening our own citizens with food and medicine shortages unless the EU concede to our demands. We are proposing to erect trade barriers with European countries with which we have crucial supply chains. We have people on the radio this morning talking about ‘digging for victory’ and growing our own veg. We are two months away from Johnson going full Pol Pot and declaring ‘Year Zero’.

Personally I’m bored with it. I’m bored with being governed by cretins and I’m bored by cretins supporting this shite.

A post that confirms my view