Another new Brexit thread

[kevin horlocks wand]

Nope. I feel the same contempt for people who vandalise my country on a wing and a prayer as I would if they did it to my house.

This is my children's futures we are talking about.

But nobody else’s

 

[inbetween]

When we present a Withdrawal Agreement with the EU that can also find favour with a majority in Parliament. A Parliament that was elected by the people in 2017 and which declined to give a mandate to the Tories and elected Parties who were against a no deal Brexit. That the answer is proving difficult is not a reason to suspend a Parliament voted for by the people a year after the referendum.

If this Parliament can not find an answer and this Govt cannot govern then the solution is one we have used for centuries and that is an election.

I agree but the reason we are in this mess is because the MP's made it so.

This is checkmate and it is a checkmate brought about by Labour's dithering and a remain element in Parliament that quite simply cannot organise itself.

An election cannot stop the legislation for no deal which was overwhelmingly voted for. Any election would now take place in November so is pointless.

Funnily enough, I don't call Johnson's bluff and there is far more to this. I certainly think it is a pressure tool that he will try to use against the EU Parliament.

Anything positive from them and I think he will extend which will both deter an election and essentially deliver a better deal.

 

[Dribble]

Yes I'm quite sure that all 17.4 million of them when they were voting to leave the EU, didn't take into account
Krystallnacht and Dachau concentration camp.
Whatever were they thinking, eh?

Quite. After all, this is all because we want our country back & to control our own laws & borders....... I know a great idea, why don't we just suspend parliament. Isn't this what controlling our own laws is all about?

 

[mat]

Except it’s not a precedent is it, from guido .......

The news of Boris’s planned prorogation has naturally sent Remainers into hysterics, calling the move “undemocratic“, “outrageous” and comparing the PM to a “tin pot dictator” – all for using a bog-standard procedural technique.

prorogation has historically been used by Attlee, Major and Canadian PM Stephen Harper for political purposes. The move is even less surprising when taking into account the UK is currently enjoying the longest Parliamentary session ever since 1653, so a Queen’s Speech is long overdue.

it would be helpful to remind everyone that John major used it which he used to cover up the cash for questions scandal – lasted from the March 21 until the 1997 General Election: a period of 6 weeks, compare this to today’s announced prorogation that will result in Parliament losing only 4 sitting days

Guido is the RW version of The Canary to be fair.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Guido is the RW version of The Canary to be fair.

Well those are just facts . This is not the first time it’s ever been done.

 

[mat]

Why imagine Corbyn when it's happening right now with Borris?

Hes trying to get Boris lovers to understand his concerns.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Quite. After all, this is all because we want our country back & to control our own laws & borders....... I know a great idea, why don't we just suspend parliament. Isn't this what controlling our own laws is all about?

It's an idea for sure, up there with refusing to implement the will of the people, after abrogating parliamentary procedure
in their favour. In short, as someone has just said, if you choose to act the ****, don't be surprised it gets reciprocated.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Well those are just facts . This is not the first time it’s ever been done.

Not a lot of people know that;)

 

[mat]

Well those are just facts . This is not the first time it’s ever been done.

I don't doubt the facts just the source.

Back on topic Arlene wants some more money.

 

[Dribble]

Yep but:

1. that was the utterly incompetent May, advised by a ridiculously amateurish Robbins, being spoonfed by the EU's professional negotiators

2. the 'agreement' that it is set out within has zero standing as it has been refused by the HoC

Where Office Dribble is getting wrong is there is no need for any solution to the 'backstop' problem because the backstop does not exist as any kind of formal/legal protocol

The Irish Border issue is an aspect arising from the negotiations that result from submission of the A50 notice. There will need to be decisions to address that issue - they seem pretty obvious to me - but I am not hell-bent on inventing things to stop Brexit happening

I'm still waiting for you to respond directly to me if you don't mind. As I pointed out, the issue is the Irish border question, & the backstop was an agreed solution, as opposed to you claiming the backstop was the issue??? Still not understanding where you've taken a wrong turn yet?

Also, what are the realisations regarding the EU that you came to in the early 90s? I'll wait patiently until you can enlighten us all on your pearls of EU wisdom.

 

[inbetween]

It's an idea for sure, up there with refusing to implement the will of the people, after abrogating parliamentary procedure

in their favour. In short, as someone has just said, if you choose to act the ****, don't be surprised it gets reciprocated.

It's funny but they all gladly accepted summer recess (suspension)..

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Not a lot of people know that;)

I know the difference is 4 days debating time !! The speaker is outraged he said from his holiday home.

However a bandwagon has just left so they are all jumping on the outrageous bus.

Democracy is dead in this country according to Nicola sturgeon.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Just coming to the end of the latest procurement exercise - just completed evaluation. I have just spent some days helping SG plan out to achieve reaching 100% (the ministerial commitment) - it is difficult (and not cost-effective) to get fibre to some postcodes - but I guess you know that.

Has your postcode received SF capability yet? SG do provide a website that allows you to enter your postcode and check where you are on the schedule you know? If you struggle with that I can do a search to help you.

"Binned, revoked, stopped.." you say - should you not add '..completed, concluded, ended, finalised, etc." to that

If your aim is indeed to see an end to the nation being riven - then surely you should not stop at outcomes that only satisfy the minority vote?

If you can be balanced and objective - you should perhaps view the news today with 'grudging' admiration - it looks that Boris is going to act to bring this to an end at last

I have fibre thanks very much albeit my property was a direct to exchange and therefore more technically difficult to achieve. My lol was not to disparage your role in what is a difficult and challenging technology rollout. I certainly know from hard experience how difficult they can be - one of my previous roles was responsible for the largest ATM fleet in the U.K. Rather that it placed you as somehow more qualified to talk about negotiating practice over others. Anyway....
The nation is riven irrespective of what happens. I simply said I would rather it was riven still as a part of the EU rather than outside it. That is balanced and objective given where we are. Boris is not bringing this to an end unless you are suggesting that he is somehow healing our riven nation. Are you?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Anna soubrey on the bbc saying there is no precedent for this procedure

A blatant lie but not challenged

Edit She then says later contradicting herself when it has been used before it has been done for a matter of days. He is proposing 4 days

why let detail get in the way of an interview. Not challenged again

 

[mcfc1632]

This is of coarse just a guess, but I suspect that Johnson hopes parliament will find a way to block his moves here, and then he can portray himself as ultra-brexitman who was thwarted in his noble plans by the evil democratically elected members of parliament, and run the next election as the true salt of the earth, man of the people, that only Eton can produce.

Putting aside the unnecessary barb at the end there which devalues an otherwise good point - I think that you are in the right area.

He needs to bring this to an end - he has bet the (Conservative) house on achieving that

He cannot really lose here - so, odious as people might find it, it is politically clever

• If it works - he has the possibility of presenting (for the first time) to the EU that there is the pollical will to execute a No-Deal Brexit
  
• If it does not work - he has the opportunity to go to the country against a background where the EU are seen in a negative light by the majority of voters
  
• Labour are seen as 'all over the place' and will at last have to come out and set a clear position in their manifesto
  
• There will be a likely split of the Remain vote - with some of it (in the South) going to the Conservatives - because, when push comes to shove, many see the risk of a Corbyn led government as far more of an issue than Brexit.
  
• The BP vote will go to the Conservative party

I think that he will win a working majority - like it or hate it (and I am not sure where I personally stand on it) - it is undeniably clever - and it shows a level of determination that has not been seen up to now

 

[Dribble]

It's an idea for sure, up there with refusing to implement the will of the people, after abrogating parliamentary procedure
in their favour. In short, as someone has just said, if you choose to act the ****, don't be surprised it gets reciprocated.

Talking about the will of the people, remind me when a no deal Brexit was promised as the way forward?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Talking about the will of the people, remind me when a no deal Brexit was promised as the way forward?

About the same time as soft brexit was invented , i cannot be sure but I guess sometime around the end of 2016.

 

[mcfc1632]

Don’t disagree but the other argument is that Johnson genuinely believes the only reason the EU won’t cave is because they think Parliament will block no deal and if he makes blocking impossible then the EU will fold on the backstop etc. We have consistently misread the EU for the last three years and alas we seem determined to continue this losing streak.

The other factor is that any ‘revised’ deal will have little time to pass Parliament. People forget that just voting for the deal in principle through Parliament is only the beginning of the saga as we have to pass the Act that goes with it which will take Parliamentary time that isn’t available before 31st Oct and the same is true of no deal legislation which will also be needed. We talk about preparing for no deal when in reality we are not even close.

You really do have that wrong in some aspects.

The importance of managing a No-Deal stance in negotiations is not to force a cave-in of the other party - you cannot control that. What he will have here though is the ability to demonstrate the 'political will' - as I have been saying for years

The need is to make sure that you are positioned to actually do it rather than collapse at the death - otherwise the other party will just sit and observe (the need to make it a viable proposition - as I have been saying for years).

1. That the EU do act by placing something in the Political Declaration that the AG effectively does fetter the backstop through time or other criteria. or

2. That Johnson wins a majority (or not) and if he does then the EU accept the exit of the UK and provide a transition period for both parties to manage transition/implementation

 

[cibaman]

I know the difference is 4 days debating time !! The speaker is outraged he said from his holiday home.

However a bandwagon has just left so they are all jumping on the outrageous bus.

Democracy is dead in this country according to Nicola sturgeon.

Isn’t it only 4 days if parliament doesn’t take the option of sitting during the conference season?

 

[mcfc1632]

I hope parliament is suspended and we finally leave. Parliament doesn’t represent the people anymore - it’s not about stopping no deal it’s about stopping brexit entirely.

I will bet now if Johnson does this and we leave the conservatives will win the next election

Yep - it is a clever tactic

This will have been well-thought through (I hope) - and I think that he will win an election

I am watching SKY news at the moment - the angst and hand-wringing of the stream of people being interviewed suggests that they are also thinking that he just might be successful