Another new Brexit thread

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Rascal said:
Presumably you think I voted remain. All that presumption is not good for your health.

Democracy did not die when the result was not implemented as the process was always going to take time, anybody who thought it was simple had clearly not grasped the complexity of it. As it happens I am fairly comfortable with no deal as I have posted previously, what I am not in favour of is our sovereign Parliament being over ridden and our MPs being nullified as that is the actions of a despot. If you believe that despotism is a price worth paying to leave the EU how do you keep a straight face and not see the contradictions as one of the accusations against the EU was that itself was anti democratic. Its hypocrisy to believe in democracy for one but not the other. I am foremost a believer in democracy as the least worst system of government, I don't think you do, I think you believe so blindly in Brexit that you are prepared to sacrifice our democracy to achieve your goal and that quite frankly is frightening. You have been radicalised by the far right and have taken leave of your senses. What is the point of Brexit at all if our parliament is used as a vechile for oppression. I want our parliament to have the right to make sure Brexit is delivered properly, I don't want it delivered by decree and subjugation.

If you really believe that being anti democratic is the way to leave an anti democratic organisation then do not be surprised if authoritarianism wins the day and we stumble blindly in to fascism.
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I think that post is a little unfair on @kevin horlocks wand mate, as he is one of the most pragmatic, realist leavers who post regularly on this thread.
 
Blue Hefner said:
Didn’t one of the leading members of EFTA come out a year or so ago and say they didn’t really want us - primarily because we’ve been agitating to leave the EU for years and they were/are worried that we we be unsettling the day after joining
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A Norwegian diplomat was, at most, annoyed that we thought we could have the same, but not really, kind of deal with the EU they did but without conceeding anything, but that had nothing to do with EFTA membership.

Some Swiss diplomats stated they were, at most, concerned that if the UK joined the EFTA it would become the most dominant member, but at no point has either member stated they wouldn't want the UK to join. Iceland, for example, are quite keen on us joining them.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I think that post is a little unfair on @kevin horlocks wand mate, as he is one of the most pragmatic, realist leavers who post regularly on this thread.
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I see little pragmatism on either side. I see polarisation, but as I am fairly new to the debate on here I am of course unaware of previous history and if I am wrong I will hold my hands up and say so.

I am just astonished that people are comfortable with Johnsons actions, like I said I am comfortable with leaving but I am not comfortable with his anti democratic stance and I do think that anyone who supports it as a means to end is a fool, because the danger is it will not end there.
 
inbetween said:
Is there anything to vote on that they haven't already had 3 years to vote on?

We voted to extend in March and what has been achieved since?

It seems to me that many want these 'lost' votes and sittings to be more about second referendums than say alternatives to no deal.
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Parliament was elected with a majority against a no deal Brexit. Parliament has consistently voted against a no deal Brexit. Suspension is designed to limit their capacity to vote against a no deal Brexit. If you want Parliament to vote and agree on a Brexit option then the executive can negotiate and present one to Parliament.

If the executive cannot do so and Parliament will not accept a no deal Brexit then Parliament should be dissolved, manifestos spelling out what each party seeks in terms of Brexit and a fresh mandate sought from the people.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
A Norwegian diplomat was, at most, annoyed that we thought we could have the same, but not really, kind of deal with the EU they did but without conceeding anything, but that had nothing to do with EFTA membership.

Some Swiss diplomats stated they were, at most, concerned that if the UK joined the EFTA it would become the most dominant member, but at no point has either member stated they wouldn't want the UK to join. Iceland, for example, are quite keen on us joining them.
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Would it not be possible to be legally outside of EFTA / EEA but with a relationship that mirrored them ?
At least as a temporary measure?
 
andyhinch said:
How do you not understand that some sectors can go up, if a report only shows negative results biased and useless.
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And - let's not forget that this exchange is about the projected massive job losses set out in Project Fear

I do not remember George Osborne going into sector by sector detail - seems distraction to me
 
cibaman said:
Would it not be possible to be legally outside of EFTA / EEA but with a relationship that mirrored them ?
At least as a temporary measure?
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I don't think so. I think that's what the "Norway plus" idea was.
 
hgblue said:
Remainers have been so heavily focused on their own 'radicalisation', that they've failed to notice, or didn't care, that their actions were provoking a radicalisation of Leavers. The term 'reaping what you sow' springs to mind.
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And vice versa. Finger pointing is great but it does point both ways. Also a lot of Remainers were amenable to a political Brexit but maintaining close economic ties until May went all ‘out of everything’, ‘citizens of nowhere’ and vowed to crush the EU at which point Brexiteers went all giddy and we now have the Brexit Party stating ‘no deal’ is what we voted for and anyone not wanting this is a traitor. So yeah we are radicalised but you ain’t squirming out of some the responsibility for it.
 
cibaman said:
Would it not be possible to be legally outside of EFTA / EEA but with a relationship that mirrored them ?
At least as a temporary measure?
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Yep. A transition period which is something we asked for and got with the Withdrawal Agreement. Johnson wants it too but it needs a legal basis and the WA is the legal basis. All orderly routes out of the EU go through the WA.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
They aren't prepared either! Do you really think the Germans and French are prepared to go into a recession because if the Irish backstop. Bizarre thoughts indeed.
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I really and truly believe that the EU have never had anything more important at the heart of their ideological project than the well being of Ireland and it's citizens.

I am totally convinced that there has not been a single ounce of opportunism by the EU in the way they have played the GFA into the negotiations and it therefore follows that - should the EU ever become convinced that the UK would indeed Leave with no-deal if a deal could not be agreed - if a consequence of holding these convictions means that Germany and other countries would likely fall into recession, there would still not be any move from the EU to make changes to the Political Declaration which would provide a level of fettering to the backstop - and put some 'persuasion' on Ireland to support such changes.

I also believe in leprechauns and can often be seen trying find the end of rainbows
 
mcfc1632 said:
I really and truly believe that the EU have never had anything more important at the heart of their ideological project than the well being of Ireland and it's citizens.

I am totally convinced that there has not been a single ounce of opportunism by the EU in the way they have played the GFA into the negotiations and it therefore follows that - should the EU ever become convinced that the UK would indeed Leave with no-deal if a deal could not be agreed - if a consequence of holding these convictions means that Germany and other countries would likely fall into recession, there would still not be any move from the EU to make changes to the Political Declaration which would provide a level of fettering to the backstop - and put some 'persuasion' on Ireland to support such changes.

I also believe in leprechauns and can often be seen trying find the end of rainbows
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Why do you continually think that the GFA is some "weapon" the EU keep throwing up to be awkward?

Its an actual thing that needs sorted first....its an agreement ratified by the UK and Irish governments...and should be decided/implemented/discussed as such. You seem to want to ignore it.....honestly, why should it be ignored? If the EU are mentioning it its a reminder that it exists and has to be dealt with.
 
Blue Hefner said:
Yes, I do. They value members and the Single Market more than jobs. If they give up the SM, they have nothing

But putting that to one side. They didn’t vote for a recession and if we go out with no-deal, that is likely to happen to us, now that is bizarre. The EU can sell this to its members as the UK’s fault - no one is buying it’s the EU’s fault. No-deal is not the end point for the UK, it’s the starting point but we will be starting neck deep in shit and the only way to get out of the shit would be to agree with what’s on the table now

But like I said, I think Johnson will sprinkle glitter on the turd and pass it but as a country we are a laughing stock.
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Why would they be giving up the SM?
 
Blue Hefner said:
My point was it’s available to private citizens and a private citizens actions are not comparable to a Prime Minister

Re a ‘deal’ - The EU’s position is there is a deal on the table and until the UK come up with something realistic and immediately workable then that is it and it’s pretty hard to disagree with them
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The deal on the table on 29th August 2019 is May's WA with the backstop removed or fettered through the PD

There is no other deal on the menu
 
mcfc1632 said:
The deal on the table on 29th August 2019 is May's WA with the backstop removed or fettered through the PD

There is no other deal on the menu
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And then align our customs to theirs for a period of time until we can find a solution?

Or a timescale on the backstop?
 
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