Another new Brexit thread

[cibaman]

The beeb had a constitutional bod on yesterday who contradicted the leg which says that Corbyn and the opposition would have 14 days to form a government if Johnson loses a vote of no confidence. She said prorogation cuts that short. Johnson would still likely be PM when that happens allowing him to call a November election when parliament resumes

 

[bluethrunthru]

barefaced lies leading to a right wing coup

 

[BobKowalski]

There are quite view of us that have been pointing out these views - even if we are not as 'left-leaning' as Rascal and yourself - it is just simple fact that all who are genuinely seeking the implementation of socialist policies should want to see the UK leave the EU

How to you explain that many of the most ardent Remain supporters on here see themselves as being 'hard-left' - are they just 'faux socialist'? are they just confused?

Quite easy to explain. I’m not a socialist. I’m only a ‘lefty’ in the sense I can’t stand the reactionary shite that is posted on here. And Conservatives. Can’t stand them either. Also old people who moan about political correctness and complain you can’t say what you think these days. Yet when I tell them they are boring cunts they get very offended, like why? I’m just saying what I think. Bigots I hate too. Right wing bigots, left wing bigots, old bigots, young bigots, it’s the sheer fucking tedium of bigots that gets me every time.

Come to think of it I pretty much hate people.

 

[BobKowalski]

Didn't they swear blind that prorogation of Parliament had nothing to do with Brexit? Stupid fuckers like Tory MP Shailesh Vara here can’t even get that right.

‘Boris Johnson's prorogation of Parliament is perfectly constitutional and ensures the government delivers on the mandate from 17:4 million people in the biggest exercise of democracy in the UK's history. We then move on to other vital issues such as the NHS, education, jobs etc’

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Kazzy makes some great points, there is an inherent contradiction between being on the left of the Labour party and being a remain supporter. I believe this contradiction arose from the EU being a bulwark against some of the ravages of Thatcherism on the working class. It gave cat treats to soothe the hurt and exploited the cats at the next turn.

You simply cannot have a Socialist government in the EU and I will be honest it took me ages to realise this because I had been taken in by the workers protections etc. I took the cat treats without thinking of the bigger picture. That is one of the reasons I was left in the peculiar position of not having a side to choose, I could not vote remain, because it was anti socialist, one thing I disagree with Kazzy about is Farage, I despise the man and I could not vote leave because of him. That's why my stance became one of reforming the EU in the hope of it becoming a Socialist Europe, pie in the sky maybe, but I can dream. I would have voted leave if it was Labour party lead, I couldn't vote leave whilst it was Tory lead as I simply do not trust them and I only see a turbo charged neo-liberalism under those clowns.

Like anything though it is never that simple, people tend to forget that many on the left are inherently small c conservative in nature, patriotic to the core and where I do think Kazzy is right is with his description of the new liberals. I am not a Liberal Socialist, I veer towards a more authoritarian stance economically for a start, and socially I am fairly liberal but not overtly liberal. Again this is one thing I do think people get confused about when labels are attached so freely, as there are varying degrees of any political standpoint from the far left to the far right and in some cases the far right and far left merge into one.

Great post Russ. One thing I personally find difficult is that on this single issue I find myself essentially aligned with the likes of Boris, Farage and the ERG. I am not like these people and it is one of the most compelling remain arguments that if you are not like them then what they want is probably not going to do you any good. I think the fence sitting and confusion from corbyn on Brexit is due to the right having effectively hijacked the eurosceptic view of 70's labour albeit for different ends. I find the term liberal unhelpful - we live in an era of illiberal liberals.

 

[The perfect fumble]

 

[FlemishDuck]

You simply cannot have a Socialist government in the EU

Hmm, in relative terms why not? If socialist party's are dominant in Europe ..
Granted there is nothing like a purely capitalist or socialist economy, it's all mixed systems leaning eitherway.

 

[lust overlord]

Great post Russ. One thing I personally find difficult is that on this single issue I find myself essentially aligned with the likes of Boris, Farage and the ERG. I am not like these people and it is one of the most compelling remain arguments that if you are not like them then what they want is probably not going to do you any good. I think the fence sitting and confusion from corbyn on Brexit is due to the right having effectively hijacked the eurosceptic view of 70's labour albeit for different ends. I find the term liberal unhelpful - we live in an era of illiberal liberals.

I understand why there is a marriage of convenience between the left leavers and the likes of farage,ids,mogg etc,it's a means to an end.

What I struggle with lefty leavers is,what happens when they get their wish,do they honestly think it'll turn out well?

We've already had a taste of what is to come.

It's the scorpion and the frog tale,with the difference being,the frog gets all the way across the river.

 

[mcfc1632]

The Nazi slurs are wrong and fucking idiotic, however whilst not justifying it the leavers use of EUSSR is also mindless stupidity and people fight fire with fire.

There is however a clear rise in far right wing populism across Europe and whilst i would not use the lazy Nazi terminology, there is definitely authoritarian fascist traits emerging not only across Europe but here in the UK. The fringes of politics have been stretched rightwards which if you understand how the Overton window works then a way of dragging it back towards the centre is by employing further left wing populist rhetoric, which is also not needed. You can see from the replies on here that Corbyn is quite often referred to as a Marxist rather than a Social Democrat. That is what happens when opinion becomes polarised, the extremes look more inviting and to use a word from the lexicon of James O'Brien what has happened is we now have the "footballification" of politics. It is ya boo rubbish and it makes the art of compromise almost impossible.

Yes the rise of the far right is happening across the Eu28 - not just the UK

Do you not think that the EU may be a cause for this - and the solution of the ideologues?

Accelerate integration before the project can be derailed

I accept that is what you would prefer - but no thanks - not for me

 

[mcfc1632]

According to Katya Adler the BBC correspondent the whispers around the EU are that they think Johnson's strategy is flawed and they conclude the UK will be harmed far more by a No Deal than they will. Conclusion? The WA is not up for discussion and they are baffled by but prepared to stand by and let the UK self harm.

That may or not be the case, but anyway I do not see how that impacts what I set out - perhaps you misread what I posted

 

[urban genie]

There are quite view of us that have been pointing out these views - even if we are not as 'left-leaning' as Rascal and yourself - it is just simple fact that all who are genuinely seeking the implementation of socialist policies should want to see the UK leave the EU

How to you explain that many of the most ardent Remain supporters on here see themselves as being 'hard-left' - are they just 'faux socialist'? are they just confused?

It's simple really, at the time of the referendum we had in power a tory government run by bastards who hate the lower classes
The employment rights we have as a member of the EU plus certain other rights would probably dissapear if we left, and I fully expect a johnson goveenment to fuck over the populace once no deal happens.

So a choice vote remain to stay in a system you don't particulary want to as it is far from socialist
Or
Vote leave and be fucked over even more by this breed or tory cunts

Remain was the lesser of two evils at the time, if labour had been in government I would have voted leave

 

[mcfc1632]

The EU will not move until they believe the U.K. has punched itself out in its internal boxing match. There are a good few rounds left of that yet.

Spot on - they have had no need to move yet as they have not faced painful choices and have been able to be a spectator of a UK farce

They may, or may not, move should they ever be faced with the genuine prospect of a No-Deal - that has not happened yet

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

This misses the option of bringing back Mays deal..... one of the reasons that it could not be voted on (for a fourth time) was Bercow insisting that the rule ' a bill can only be voted on three times in a session ' was enforced. Perouging Parliament forces a New Queens speech and a new session of Parliament. Johnson may be trying to develop an option of forcing the ERG members to vote for the original WA whilst staring in the headlights of either a General Election , or withdrawal of Article 50 (He knows the Eu won't renegotiate)

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

barefaced lies leading to a right wing coup

Conservatives in lying to the Queen (as well as everyone else) shock!

 

[mcfc1632]

The burden on MP's for the last three years has been to deliver the better outcome you are talking about. The biggest example of a good outcome as a remainer like me is EFTA, I would of fully supported that, wouldn't you?

You can't just say there is no alternative, it isn't about finding a better one than what we have because obviously there clearly isn't one. This however is pre-referendum language, we knew all this before the referendum, as a result I voted remain but more people voted to leave.

MP's could of proposed the best case alternatives like EFTA which would of directly prevented no deal, reunited the country AND delivered Brexit. Where have these alternatives been? In fact where has remain been for the ENTIRE debate on alternatives?

Remain hasn't been present at this debate because remain won't debate, remain is only interested in the opposite of what most people voted for. Remain is only interested in the most anti-democratic element which is to refuse debate and accept one option only.

The end result is that a government has to assert itself for the good of the majority or it isn't a government and unfortunately this government has woken up and is using all avenues it has available.

For remain this isn't the death of democracy, it is the slow death of hope. A slow death of hope to rather ironically overturn democracy. I don't like it but I'm a democrat and I'm starting to accept it is the only way we will be able to leave.

Great post

Indeed, as this forum as shown, for most Remainers it has all been about having the vote reversed. An acceptable alternative could have secured consensus if they had ever bothered to do other than spit their collective dummy

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Great post

Indeed, as this forum as shown, for most Remainers it has all been about having the vote reversed. An acceptable alternative could have secured consensus if they had ever bothered to o other than spit their collective dummy

An acceptable alternative was put forward by the Labour party.... We honour the referendum and exit the Eu if the deal agreed by the Government meets the promises made by the government.


It didnt

 

[mcfc1632]

I honestly believe if May was not in charge of this shit show we would have been out with a deal to leave and also a trade deal by now

Spot on

When the professional EU negotiating team saw the 'capabilities' of Robbins and May they must have thought that they may as well be true to the old adage:

"When you have got a lemon - squeeze it."

 

[Rascal]

Hmm, in relative terms why not? If socialist party's are dominant in Europe ..
Granted there is nothing like a purely capitalist or socialist economy, it's all mixed systems leaning eitherway.

You can have a nominal Socialist government, but it will be restricted by state aid rules. Therefore things like saving British Steel is at the mercy of the markets not the government.

 

[mcfc1632]

From the perspective of Leavers, in order to get this improved deal Boris needs no deal to be on the table, and Parliament was getting busy again trying to scupper that. They say they want to stop no deal, I don't believe them, this was simply a cunning ruse Remainers had hit upon to stop Brexit. Just look at the rogues gallery of avid Remainers who were behind this move. So if we can keep no deal on the table and the EU sees that this is a likely outcome we will finally find out how happy they are to see this happen, and those of us who have been saying that this is the key to getting a deal will ultimately be proved correct, and imo that is the real reason Remainers are upset.

So obvious that it cannot be denied if common-sense and reasoning are applied

 

[mcfc1632]

But do you *really* think no-deal is on the table? He said it was “a million to one” a fortnight ago

If we leave with no-deal he will be one of the shortest serving PMs in history. It is not a realist or believable position which he has taken and the EU know it. That said, just in case he is daft enough I suspect there will be some glitter sprinkled and he will try and sell it to the House. But 1) we don’t have a great recent history on pre-closing the house on what sort of deal it could live with and 2) the EU know this and are reluctant to bother if they don’t believe it will pass(source:BrexitCast, yesterday)

No-Deal remains an option at this point - but it is not properly on the table as for that to be the case the EU have to consider that a) it is viable because the UK have prepared and b) the EU can see the political will to execute no-deal.

Some on here cannot grasp that, but hgblue is spot-on in what he says - it must remain an option that can be deployed and to add to that - should the machinations be successful and see no-deal legally removed- the EU would have zero motivation to do anything other than sit and point at the May deal, with the disgustingly designed backstop and do nothing because they have no motivation to.

Do you not think that Boris knows that there is too much politicking going on and therefore there is no prospect of 'pre-closing' with the house

We will be here for another 3 years if that was attempted - he recognised that this has to be brought to a close and pre-closing is not the approach he is taking.