Another new Brexit thread

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George Hannah said:
Especially since that former conservative PM used prorogation to avoid the Cash for Questions debate.
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Not that bollocks again. All Major did was ensure he got hammered over cash for questions (and everything else) at the GE that took place during progogation.

Also why the hell do you think a Tory PM pulling a cheap stunt is a defence for another Tory PM pulling the same cheap stunt but this time during a time of crisis?

Jeez you guys have really lost the plot.
 
BobKowalski said:
Not that bollocks again. All Major did was ensure he got hammered over cash for questions (and everything else) at the GE that took place during progogation.

Also why the hell do you think a Tory PM pulling a cheap stunt is a defence for another Tory PM pulling the same cheap stunt but this time during a time of crisis?

Jeez you guys have really lost the plot.
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Because it’s hypocritical and if I was In Gina gees legal team I would not have join as the finger will just be pointed back at him.
 
mcfc1632 said:
I am still confused though

Yes - I could see that risk - but it could surely only be for the term of a parliament - then we can opt for a genuinely Socialist alternative if it was proven to be that bad

So either 5 years max if we leave - or never ever having the chance if we Remain

Still not seeing why the genuine left-leaning posters are not queuing up to support leaving​
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I understand why many on the left see that a Brexit fuelled Tory government will be a disaster for them, more unfettered neo=liberalism is not the answer to the problems we face as a nation. I accept that some may see the regulated capitalism of the EU as better than the unregulated capitalism espoused by the likes of Sajid Javid and the more neo-con Tories. They have witnessed what the Tory government has done to the nation and see the EU as a bulwark against further excess. I get it, I understand it and I definitely don't want it as I believe it to be wrong headed and only for the interests of the 1% not the many. The left has been battered into submission by the rise of neo-liberalism and its supporters in the media. We now have the ridiculous notion that people like Corbyn are Marxists, it is scaremongering and so much effort, time and money has been spent in creating the conditions for unfettered capitalism they don't want to throw it away now. That's why many on the left are scared as they see themselves under the neo-liberal yoke and all that goes with that peculiar ideology and see the EU as a safer bet than the crazy wing of the Tory party with their Hayek addiction and trickle down economic theory. Johnson is the ultimate bogeyman, he is anti democratic and a rampant capitalist, ally him with the likes of the ERG and you have a fucking nightmare administration where inequality will rise and the rich laugh their way to their Cayman Islands bank accounts. I see why many of the left would prefer the relative safety of the EU as that nightmare looms large.

I see that many on the left cannot see or hope for a Socialist future when everything is against it happening, the worm has turned and the post WW2 concensus was smashed by Thatcher thanks to her adoration of that fucking lunatic Keith Joseph and his admiration of Friedman and Hayek. They have seen the marginalisation of the left at every turn from the anti semite stuff to the Marxist appropriations and see safety in liberalism. Under these circumstances the EU is the safe port in the hurricaine that is about to smash into the nation. I Also understand that many on the left have grown up only knowing the EU and are used to its freedoms and change is always the hardest pill to swallow.

Therefore it comes down to reasons why leaving the EU is a good thing, for the right its obvious in that the goal of unfettered capitalism can be met and the Thatcherite revolution can be completed, to the right capitalism is King and nothing should stand in its way. The UK free of EU restrictions is the perfect world for the right, it can rid itself of what it sees as meddlesome EU restrictions on trade and profit can rule the world. Profit comes at a cost they will not bare as they are insulated from the effects of what they desire. For the left if leaving is to be a good thing it has to fight the whole establishment, it has to fight the vested interests and it will be a long and ardous road as everything is stacked against it from the media's scaremongering portrayal of Corbyn as a Marxist to the mindless rubbish spouted about Venezuela and other supposed Socialist failures. I can see why many on the left see it as battle they just cannot win as at every turn they hear the right wing propaganda machine whirring into action, funded by the rich for the benefit of the rich. A quick glance on here and you can see the opprobrium aimed towards Socialism and sadly I put most of it down to ignorance of Socialism and the effects of repeated untruths spouted against the left. I am no lover of Osborne but I am convinced he saw this as the outcome of the referendum and knew it would split the left as much as it would split the right, the crafty ****.

Ideally those on the left would follow the Bennite leave tradition but the weight of the media have made it virtually impossible because they are more scared of Socialism than they are of the EU and therefore to make sure unfettered capitalism wins the day, the Left must be attacked at every turn and at any cost, because the left gets in the way of corporate profits.

I do understand why people on the left are pro EU as they see it as the least worst option when faced with an overarching rush towards even more neo-liberalism and as the Tries have made no attempt to persuade them that it is not their endgame then I can not blame them for thinking that. Of course in an ideal world the left would have voted leave en masse and put their faith in Socialism and a better world, but as long as Socialism is harangued and browbeaten it aint going to happen and those who really want Brexit should have realised the counter productivity of their simplistic argument. Leave could have been done and dusted but Corbyn is a Marxist. That is how stupid politics has become.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
Do you honestly believe you will get it. I have written it off long ago. No way if I live that long will I be getting my pension. They will stiff me
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I will be dead the first cold I get after brexit mate and I can’t find any lemsip on the shelves.

That’s if hunger doesn’t take me first.
 
Rascal said:
Kazzy makes some great points, there is an inherent contradiction between being on the left of the Labour party and being a remain supporter. I believe this contradiction arose from the EU being a bulwark against some of the ravages of Thatcherism on the working class. It gave cat treats to soothe the hurt and exploited the cats at the next turn.

You simply cannot have a Socialist government in the EU and I will be honest it took me ages to realise this because I had been taken in by the workers protections etc. I took the cat treats without thinking of the bigger picture. That is one of the reasons I was left in the peculiar position of not having a side to choose, I could not vote remain, because it was anti socialist, one thing I disagree with Kazzy about is Farage, I despise the man and I could not vote leave because of him. That's why my stance became one of reforming the EU in the hope of it becoming a Socialist Europe, pie in the sky maybe, but I can dream. I would have voted leave if it was Labour party lead, I couldn't vote leave whilst it was Tory lead as I simply do not trust them and I only see a turbo charged neo-liberalism under those clowns.

Like anything though it is never that simple, people tend to forget that many on the left are inherently small c conservative in nature, patriotic to the core and where I do think Kazzy is right is with his description of the new liberals. I am not a Liberal Socialist, I veer towards a more authoritarian stance economically for a start, and socially I am fairly liberal but not overtly liberal. Again this is one thing I do think people get confused about when labels are attached so freely, as there are varying degrees of any political standpoint from the far left to the far right and in some cases the far right and far left merge into one.
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I dont agree with you because I suppose my politics are much closer than the centre than left wing. My starting place is that the EU is imperfect but on balance a force for good in the UK and the real threat to our nation comes from within. It is not the EU that have created the massive poverty and inequality in the U.K., I lay that squarely with the Tories and there ‘austerity’ policies. At a time when Labour should be forging ahead, Corbyn and his cohorts have been devoid of a vision that the country can engage with and have shown a total lack of leadership.
I do like your posts though mate, thoughtful and courteous.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
Because it’s hypocritical and if I was In Gina gees legal team I would not have join as the finger will just be pointed back at him.
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Yep. He tried to dodge it by calling an election that ensured it got top billing. Not so much hypocritical as dumb.

And the point still stands. Major suspended Parliament to call an election and took his lumps from the electorate. Johnson suspended Parliament not to call an election but to silence Parliament. Has an election announcement being made and I missed it? You still think both situations are analogous? And if they are how does one shithouse move justify another? If what Major did was wrong then so is Johnson’s move. You can’t have it both ways.
 
BobKowalski said:
Yep. He tried to dodge it by calling an election that ensured it got top billing. Not so much hypocritical as dumb.

And the point still stands. Major suspended Parliament to call an election and took his lumps from the electorate. Johnson suspended Parliament not to call an election but to silence Parliament. Has an election announcement being made and I missed it? You still think both situations are analogous? And if they are how does one shithouse move justify another? If what Major did was wrong then so is Johnson’s move. You can’t have it both ways.
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I am sure Johnson took legal advice before doing what he did and there are precedents for it and I see the Scottish courts have ruled in his favour at the first hurdle.

However politically his actions are now looking a bit stupid. Prior to his action the “stop deal brexit at any cost gang “ were looking a bit lost and rudderless with lots wanting different outcome and with his actions he has galvanised them now and put a bit more fire in their bellies.

What he needs to do and focus on is present a deal, or if the eu won’t budge the same deal to parliament so we can just how serious these MPs are about leaving with a deal.
 
blueinsa said:
I will be dead the first cold I get after brexit mate and I can’t find any lemsip on the shelves.

That’s if hunger doesn’t take me first.
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Still got plenty of spam mate. I'm willing to share (for a price)
 
mcfc1632 said:
I suggest that we are not that far apart in our assessments - we present them differently as we have different drivers as priorities and different outcomes as our desires.

Some comments on your points:

"It may well be that you are finally getting what you wanted on the negotiating table, and the threat of a no-deal, may or may not work."

Agreed - I have said many times versions of "We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they face the prospect of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it". It is a simple factual statement that has been proven entirely correct IMO by events over the past 3 years - they have been able to just sit and observe the UK farce. BUT - even this does not mean that the other party will shift as much as you want them to - it just means that you make them consider/offer concessions that they are willing to as they wish to avoid the walk-away outcome. It means no more than that. They may end up being willing to offer substantial concessions or none at all - that does not detract from the truth of my view.

"However what I have repeatedly maintained is that the Irish government stance is the only one that actually seems to have the backing of the island of Ireland"

I can accept that - certainly the UKs stance does not.

Also, I suggest that there should be recognition in Ireland that the UK has made a sovereign decision to exit from the EU - and a level of acceptance/respect shown towards that determination.

The path should have been that, immediately following the referendum, representatives of Ireland and the UK were established as a joint group to 'calmly and in a spirit of goodwill' consider the implications for the GFA and to be tasked with identifying the key issues and bringing forwards proposals/processes/workarounds to ensure that changes, acceptable to both sides, could be determined, planned and implemented.

"What you describe above is a strategy. A strategy that you have advocated all along.
Your point No 1. above demonstrates to me that you are fully aware that the language you used repeatedly in here was part of that strategy.
The EU need to be seen as bullies!"

Entirely correct - one that recognises the here and now issues presented by the lack of representation of the English element of the UK at parliament and one that seeks to plot a path for the referendum result to be implemented. It is not going to be implemented in the current climate - the cadre of Remainers are just waiting for it all to fizzle out and be overturned by a 2nd vote.

I put forward a path that allows for N.I. self determination through a referendum with the options being either an Irish Sea border but remaining part of the UK or unification (be careful what you wish for). I include a path for self-determination in Scotland through an Indyref2 vote - although I make clear that I feel that Scotland will vote to remain in the UK by an increased majority - which I am surprised some have not challenged.

There is though a prevailing set of narratives that are disregarding of the rights of England. Irish and Scottish nationalism is presented as noble - that there should be any consideration of what English people want is dismissed - but there was a massive majority in England for Leaving the EU

So, you are right, what I set out is a strategy to resolve the situation - personally I would suggest that they are actually sensible steps - to be successful there needs to be a narrative that positions the EU as the bad guy and takes advantage of a window during which the Remain vote will be split.

"I appreciate your view and it's not a criticism of your tactic or the tactic that you feel should have been employed, but I regard this strategy to be 'weaponising' (your word) Northern Ireland and the GFA more than anything you regard the EU to be doing"

You and other posters based on the Island of Ireland have understandably taken issue with this POV. I maintain that it is correct - for me it is entirely self-evident because otherwise we would jointly be doing what I suggest in my 2nd comment above. You may think that the EU are being altruistic - I certainly do not. I repeat it because, just like how a no-deal option should be used, some posters clearly do not understand it. There are some posters on here - not from the island of Ireland - that bang on in a manner as if the GFA is and always has been sacrosanct to them - when it fact it is just 'cover and code' for - this can be used to stop Brexit.
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I don't have a problem with any of that. As you say you have stated this numerous times and I did understand the first time.
We do see things from a different perspective and I suppose my substantive argument is and always has been the order in which this whole process has unravelled.
The Brexit campaign in Britain has always seemed to be opportunistic at best and full of jingoism. It didn't really address the practicalities of your existing arrangements with us and the North. The same could be said of the Remain side I'm sure but their maintain the status quo attitude did not require any alterations to our existing agreement.

Regardless of where I may think your actual problems lie, whether I agree that they stem from the EU or not, has little or no bearing on anything.
My view is you are where you are, you voted to leave. You should, but you have created a mess at every turn. I'm saying 'YOU' because I don't differentiate between remain or Brexit. It's your government. They are responsible for the mess. They will create a further mess, as they really don't care what protocols or what prior agreements they have to trample on to further their own personal gain. Their own personal gain even within their own parties at the expense of other colleagues/party members.
The referendum was ill conceived right at the start. That is not to say you don't have the right to wish to leave the EU.

You won't agree with this bit, but with this background to the last three years I really don't know how the EU can be expected to negotiate with this mess.
However diplomacy must win in the end, so lets see if some statesman steps forward.
 
mcfc1632 said:
I suggest that we are not that far apart in our assessments - we present them differently as we have different drivers as priorities and different outcomes as our desires.

Some comments on your points:

"It may well be that you are finally getting what you wanted on the negotiating table, and the threat of a no-deal, may or may not work."

Agreed - I have said many times versions of "We will not see movement from the EU unless and until they face the prospect of a viable walk-away option and the political will to use it". It is a simple factual statement that has been proven entirely correct IMO by events over the past 3 years - they have been able to just sit and observe the UK farce. BUT - even this does not mean that the other party will shift as much as you want them to - it just means that you make them consider/offer concessions that they are willing to as they wish to avoid the walk-away outcome. It means no more than that. They may end up being willing to offer substantial concessions or none at all - that does not detract from the truth of my view.

"However what I have repeatedly maintained is that the Irish government stance is the only one that actually seems to have the backing of the island of Ireland"

I can accept that - certainly the UKs stance does not.

Also, I suggest that there should be recognition in Ireland that the UK has made a sovereign decision to exit from the EU - and a level of acceptance/respect shown towards that determination.

The path should have been that, immediately following the referendum, representatives of Ireland and the UK were established as a joint group to 'calmly and in a spirit of goodwill' consider the implications for the GFA and to be tasked with identifying the key issues and bringing forwards proposals/processes/workarounds to ensure that changes, acceptable to both sides, could be determined, planned and implemented.

"What you describe above is a strategy. A strategy that you have advocated all along.
Your point No 1. above demonstrates to me that you are fully aware that the language you used repeatedly in here was part of that strategy.
The EU need to be seen as bullies!"

Entirely correct - one that recognises the here and now issues presented by the lack of representation of the English element of the UK at parliament and one that seeks to plot a path for the referendum result to be implemented. It is not going to be implemented in the current climate - the cadre of Remainers are just waiting for it all to fizzle out and be overturned by a 2nd vote.

I put forward a path that allows for N.I. self determination through a referendum with the options being either an Irish Sea border but remaining part of the UK or unification (be careful what you wish for). I include a path for self-determination in Scotland through an Indyref2 vote - although I make clear that I feel that Scotland will vote to remain in the UK by an increased majority - which I am surprised some have not challenged.

There is though a prevailing set of narratives that are disregarding of the rights of England. Irish and Scottish nationalism is presented as noble - that there should be any consideration of what English people want is dismissed - but there was a massive majority in England for Leaving the EU

So, you are right, what I set out is a strategy to resolve the situation - personally I would suggest that they are actually sensible steps - to be successful there needs to be a narrative that positions the EU as the bad guy and takes advantage of a window during which the Remain vote will be split.

"I appreciate your view and it's not a criticism of your tactic or the tactic that you feel should have been employed, but I regard this strategy to be 'weaponising' (your word) Northern Ireland and the GFA more than anything you regard the EU to be doing"

You and other posters based on the Island of Ireland have understandably taken issue with this POV. I maintain that it is correct - for me it is entirely self-evident because otherwise we would jointly be doing what I suggest in my 2nd comment above. You may think that the EU are being altruistic - I certainly do not. I repeat it because, just like how a no-deal option should be used, some posters clearly do not understand it. There are some posters on here - not from the island of Ireland - that bang on in a manner as if the GFA is and always has been sacrosanct to them - when it fact it is just 'cover and code' for - this can be used to stop Brexit.
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One point I missed out on.
'Be careful what you wish for'
I fully agree and have said as much in response to others on here. I don't thing a border poll or an all island referendum on unification would be a good idea under these circumstances.
It would be every bit as divisive, ill-planned, emotive rushed and all consuming as Brexit was/is in Britain. Not the right platform for something so important no matter what Sinn Fein may think.
 
mcfc1632 said: ↑
I recognise what the GFA is

I recognise that the GFA is very important and needs great care and sensitivity

I recognise what the prevailing conditions were when it was established and how those conditions are about to change

I am confident that Ireland and the UK would/could have undertaken calm diplomacy and joint actions to ensure that processes and workarounds could be designed and amendments could be agreed to ensure smooth cross-border movements and mitigated the risks we hear so much about

I am certain that the EU weaponised the issue for opportunistic reasons

If you genuinely believe that their actions reflect only altruism then I suggest that you should join me in a joint hunt for that pot of gold.
hilts said:
That’s a bingo
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Whatever about the would/could have if things had been addressed in the right order. Perhaps.
However I would have very little confidence in that being a possibility now with your present government.
I would say things will get even worse diplomatically between Dublin and London if Johnson wins a GE, considering where his backing comes from.
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
I am sure Johnson took legal advice before doing what he did and there are precedents for it and I see the Scottish courts have ruled in his favour at the first hurdle.

However politically his actions are now looking a bit stupid. Prior to his action the “stop deal brexit at any cost gang “ were looking a bit lost and rudderless with lots wanting different outcome and with his actions he has galvanised them now and put a bit more fire in their bellies.

What he needs to do and focus on is present a deal, or if the eu won’t budge the same deal to parliament so we can just how serious these MPs are about leaving with a deal.
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This won’t be decided in the courts although it hasn’t been kicked out just the immediate stay. Full hearing is now Tuesday. Our constitution relies on a degree of ‘good faith’ and people not abusing it but if they want to abuse it they can.

I agree that this has galvanised the Remain side and for what a week or so without extra Parliamentary scrutiny? And I agree this needs bringing to a head one way or the other.
 
blueinsa said:
Well as they leave the teat of the rest of the U.K. they will quickly need another to suckle on.

I wonder if they have mentioned the Barnett formulae to Tusk yet?
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I'm sure Scotland will be fine.
As it will be only the second English speaking (after a fashion) country in the EU it will be attractive for financial services and manufacturing companies to relocate staff and assets into Scotland which will all help the Scottish economy.
 
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