Another new Brexit thread

[west didsblue]

I'd imagine the EU would rise above such pettiness in order to protect its citizens by establishing a reciprocal agreement - unless you are implying they are in some way a malevolent organisation.

More imagining.
Great.

 

[west didsblue]

Postig BMA doom mongering trumps it.
Reciprocation is in place.

In Spain for 1 year.

 

[west didsblue]

Yes, pretty much.

Welcome to the backstop.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

More imagining.
Great.

At least I'm not pretending it's fact ;-)

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I'd imagine the EU would rise above such pettiness in order to protect its citizens by establishing a reciprocal agreement - unless you are implying they are in some way a malevolent organisation.

It's a bloody vicious one that would resort to it, but plenty seem to love it.

 

[west didsblue]

At least I'm not pretending it's fact ;-)

Exactly the point. There aren’t any facts about what will happen just uncertainty and optimism that everything will be fine in spite of all the potential pitfalls.

 

[BobKowalski]

My guess and hey, its just a guess much like the BMA article because they also dont have a single clue as to what the future arrangements will be is that fuck all will change and reciprocal arrangements will be made for the ex pats in the EU and the double amount living and working here.

No they don’t. No one really does. And that is the point you seem unable to grasp. Even the Brexit loving Spectator is sounding the alarm on the number of EU citizens who are being denied settled status. Daniel Hannan has also spoke up on it. Millions of people here and millions of U.K. citizens in other EU countries have seen their legal right to stay taken from them. Now they have to ‘prove’ they have a right to stay and in a lot of cases that is proving to be difficult given the Home Office is still running on ‘hostile environment’ mode.

It’s all very well making light of it or saying it will be no problem but having your legal right to stay in a country where you have built a life thrown into question is unsettling and bland assurances that it will all be okay isn’t quite the comfort you think it is. Removing legal rights and protections has consequences as even some high profile Brexiteers are discovering.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Exactly the point. There aren’t any facts about what will happen just uncertainty and optimism that everything will be fine in spite of all the potential pitfalls.

That's just it though isn't it - apparently brexiteers being optimistic is somehow less realistic than Remainers being pessimistic? All either have are the selection of 'facts' they selectively choose to believe and in reality neither know for sure.

 

[west didsblue]

Anyway now we’ve established that no one has a fucking clue what will happen to reciprocal health care other than for the next year in Spain, does anyone have a clue how British industry will fare when supply chains slow down and surplus parts have run out?

 

[hilts]

Hilts don’t take this as anything other than amicable debate.
Your answer above wanders all over the place in relation to what our original discussion was about.
Not that I disagree with the sentiment you seem to be conveying, but I’ll state my case as simply as I can.

Your initial argument sited several vested interests including a minority Irish lunatic fringe trying to dictate to the UK’s right to self determination as far as the EU membership is concerned.
I asked who this minority are and I think we do both agree that the DUP are definitely in the lunatic category.
I also offered Sinn Fein’s stance on the matter.

The problem with this supporting your argument is that both of these for totally contradictory reasons are happy to see a no deal Brexit.
Quite the opposite of your argument.

The DUP never supported the GFA in the first place and see Brexit as pure opportunism to undermine it as they see this as strengthening their place in the Union.
Quite perversely, Sinn Fein would gladly ignore the economic disaster for the North that Brexit would bring, quite aside from any other problems, because they think it would bring them closer to a poll on s United Ireland, which incidentally they would be disappointed by.

I’m not having a go. I’m just sick of the amount of thrash that is spouted in here.

I don’t really care what you say about each other, remainer v Brexiteers. It’s sad and would be comical if it weren’t for the fact it is quite serious and you will have to live together whatever happens.
Triumphalism won’t get you anywhere.
Have any of you paid any attention to the North for guidance on that.
The total certainty of both viewpoints is something I don’t have.
I don’t know what the outcome will be but there is nothing we can do about it over here. Believe me. We’ll get on with it either way.
The majority on this island looked to the future and will continue to do so. I have to have confidence in that.

I get fed up when total misinformation regarding Ireland though is used in this mudslinging matches that go on.

If Ireland is used for point scoring amongst yourselves, I will continue to highlight inaccuracies.

We are at crossed purposes and I didn't use the word lunatics. But these lunatics as you state only exist with support. That support in a lot of cases comes from the past. This is what I mean by some people in Ireland and the rest of the UK in fairness need to grow up.

Unless we decide now in 2019 how we wish to shape the future nothing positive can happen in my view. I think in terms of Ireland and specifically northern Ireland discussions need to focus on the bigger picture rather than this hopeless attempt at trying to appease everyone. Don't let people use brexit as a political tool.

Decisions need to be taken as to what you want. This will obviously mean looking at what where you/they wish to belong. You needn't be British. Irish European you can be whatever you/they want. Don't let a piddling border get in the way. Don't treat the gfa as some sort of shrine like the yanks do with their constitution . If it benefits the population to amend it in different times so what? As long as the reasons are good.

Nationality is way over rated. If the majority want to go down the eu route fucking off the UK may be the best option. It may not but don't let an agreement or a border be a hindrance.

To me devolved govts in the UK are a mistake. As are national parliaments in the eu and the ability to pick and choose your own status.

In northern Ireland they could be independent. Irish.british or European. Trying to be all 4 is always going to be troublesome at some point.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Anyway now we’ve established that no one has a fucking clue what will happen to reciprocal health care other than for the next year in Spain, does anyone have a clue how British industry will fare when supply chains slow down and surplus parts have run out?

No one will ever make anything anymore, economy ends, 100% unemployment and aids becomes airborne.

 

[west didsblue]

That's just it though isn't it - apparently brexiteers being optimistic is somehow less realistic than Remainers being pessimistic? All either have are the selection of 'facts' they selectively choose to believe and in reality neither know for sure.

Or you could say that those that will accept No Deal are prepared to gamble with people’s lives, livelihoods and wellbeing whereas those who would not accept No Deal even as a last resort (both Brexiters and Remainers) aren’t.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

I tend to believe and trust, that Beryl, originally from Doncaster, but resident in Torremolinos for the past 20
years will not be tipped out of her hospital bed,mid prolapse operation, by the Guardia Civil sometime
after September 2020.
But,with this EU, well ... you never know.

 

[west didsblue]

No one will ever make anything anymore, economy ends, 100% unemployment and aids becomes airborne.

If you say so.
Yawn.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Or you could say that those that will accept No Deal are prepared to gamble with people’s lives, livelihoods and wellbeing whereas those who would not accept No Deal even as a last resort (both Brexiters and Remainers) aren’t.

Or that those that would accept no deal are not prepared to gamble upon the future generosity of a possibly spiteful EU? - All down to opinions /perspective

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

If you say so.
Yawn.

Don't yawn mate - the post brexit airborne aids will get you.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

For me - it seems a straight forward position and everyone should be happy - unless they are simply playing politics

The current deal gets signed off after the WA has been changed to a time-limited backstop - an unfettered one is wholly unacceptable. The backstop should apply for only a maximum of 1 year after the transition period - which should be capped off at 2 years.

Should there be agreement that the backstop is still needed - then the Irish Sea Border comes into effect - providing N.I. the best of both worlds - but I recognise the 'identity issues/sensitivities'.

There should be a strict time-limit on this backstop period - say further 2 years during which N.I. hold a referendum on whether they wish to remain part of the UK - with a border in the Irish Sea until 'issues are resolved (spoiler - they will not be that insurmountable if the backstop does not keep the rest of the UK shackled) - or become part of a united Ireland

Not rocket science

Well that sounds great.
If you believe that’s the answer it should have been discussed before now but we know why it hasn’t.
I think we agree about the mess that has been made.
I don’t believe the technology is there which is another thing delaying the timeline.

But ultimately going forward l don’t share your optimism regarding how discussions with your present government would pan out even if they were to happen.

There is serious damage being done to Irish British relations at the moment and I sincerely hope nothing is done to make it worse.
Your present government are untrustworthy. They’d sell their own down the river to get what they want.

 

[BobKowalski]

Do you honestly think Spain, which is probably the home of most expats, is suddenly, some time after Brexit,
going to immediately rescind reciprocation? Why, just to be awkward cunts? What do they gain from it?
The same goes for other areas of the EU, what is to be gained?

The British in Spain are immigrants. And let’s see if we can think of a reason why a political party may wish to drum up resentment towards say non EU immigrants? Political influence and power perhaps? Seems to have worked out ok for Farage. And the Brexit Party. And the Tory Party.

I mean it’s not as if Spain has a history of fascism or a far right party or a long running territorial dispute with Britain to whip up some trouble over.

 

[BobKowalski]

I think we have always said we'd afford a good level of protection to EU citizens already here. Notably the EU stayed silent in return. They absolutely will weaponise the status of UK citizens as they become more angry/spiteful/desperate. Good reason to get out of the 'club'.

Well that’s big of you. It’s not the message they are getting from the Home Office but I’m sure they will appreciate the scraps you are prepared to throw their way.

The status of non EU citizens is a nation competence not an EU competence.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The British in Spain are immigrants. And let’s see if we can think of a reason why a political party may wish to drum up resentment towards say non EU immigrants? Political influence and power perhaps? Seems to have worked out ok for Farage. And the Brexit Party. And the Tory Party.

I mean it’s not as if Spain has a history of fascism or a far right party or a long running territorial dispute with Britain to whip up some trouble over.

So, we should stay in the EU because Spain might be a bit facist - seems legit!