Another new Brexit thread

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Well that’s big of you. It’s not the message they are getting from the Home Office but I’m sure they will appreciate the scraps you are prepared to throw their way.

The status of non EU citizens is a nation competence not an EU competence.

I know, I'm married to one.

 

[bluethrunthru]

No one will ever make anything anymore, economy ends, 100% unemployment and aids becomes airborne.

is NOT an answer to the question though

 

[George Hannah]

Just thought I'd drop in the cases against and for Boris' prorogation for political advantage as seen by a couple of experts

Lord Pannick, QC, believes those seeking a judicial review of the decision to suspend parliament have every chance of success.

Last month Sir John Major, the former prime minister, threatened such a move.

Lord Pannick has written in The Times: “The courts would not entertain a challenge to a personal decision by the Queen, because she, the head of the UK’s constitutional structure, is immune from legal process.”

However, he said what could be challenged “is the legality of the advice on prorogation given by the prime minister”.

According to the QC, Sir John and any other claimants “would need to show that the advice breaches a fundamental legal principle” — and one potentially would be the sovereignty of parliament.

Lord Pannick represented Gina Miller in the Supreme Court case that forced Theresa May’s government to put the Article 50 trigger to a parliamentary vote.

He pointed to three pillars of a potential legal challenge: the prime minister has sought to prorogue parliament to avoid parliamentary sovereignty on an issue of constitutional importance; Mr Johnson has attempted to stop parliament sitting on the brink of the Brexit deadline; and he has tried to evade parliament because it has previously made clear its wish to prevent a no-deal Brexit.

Lord Pannick added: “If he were to advise the Queen to prorogue parliament in these circumstances, the courts would be likely to hear an urgent application and then declare his advice to be unlawful.”

He concluded that while such a ruling meant that “parliamentary democracy would be restored”, there would still be doubt over what MPs would be able to do about the wider issue of Brexit.

The peer said that Mr Johnson “would be likely to suffer the political equivalent of the fate of Charles I, the last ruler to attempt to close down parliament because it stood in the way of his political objectives.”

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lord Sumption on Boris Johnson’s prorogation of parliament: the legal case for


The former Supreme Court justice Lord Sumption, who retired last December, told The Times: “The government will undoubtedly face a legal challenge.
“Some will consider what the prime minister has announced to be a disgrace and they will see the courts as the place to go,” continued the outspoken former senior judge.However, Lord Sumption, who is also a respected historian, said that while it may be unconventional to prorogue parliament as the Brexit deadline looms, doing so is entirely legal.

“I don’t think what the prime minister has said he is going to do is unlawful,” he said.

“It might be considered unconstitutional in as much as it might be argued to be contrary to a longstanding convention of the constitution.

“But the question is whether what the prime minister has done is a legal or political disgrace. Is what he has announced the subject of legal rules or of historical convention?

“The only objection is that the decision has been taken for questionable political motives. But that is not something the courts should rule on.”

And as Lord Sumption wrote for The Times last month: “Judicial review is concerned with acts of public bodies that are said to be unlawful. Conventions are different. They are rules but not legal rules and breach of them is not necessarily contrary to law.

“Conventions are customary rules of practice, supported by a consensus of opinion, whose force derives from the fact that it would be politically costly to disregard them.”

Ultimately, said Lord Sumption, “the problem lies in the awkward position of the Queen. She plainly ought not to act inconsistently with either the law or the conventions of the constitution, and presumably she would not wish to. But, in practice, she is likely to follow the advice of her ministers even if it is unconstitutional.”

Lord Sumption on Brexit about 10 minutes in here - brilliant analysis
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0005f05

 

[BobKowalski]

I tend to believe and trust, that Beryl, originally from Doncaster, but resident in Torremolinos for the past 20
years will not be tipped out of her hospital bed,mid prolapse operation, by the Guardia Civil sometime
after September 2020.
But,with this EU, well ... you never know.

How an EU nation deals with non EU immigrants is a national competence not an EU competence.

By the way we denied elderly citizens health care in the Windrush scandal so if I was Beryl I wouldn’t take anything on trust.

 

[BobKowalski]

I know, I'm married to one.

Then you should know better.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

is NOT an answer to the question though

It might be, or maybe fuck all will happen. God forbid business finds a workable solution

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Then you should know better.

Maybe I do? She also works in the NHS.

 

[hilts]

The British in Spain are immigrants. And let’s see if we can think of a reason why a political party may wish to drum up resentment towards say non EU immigrants? Political influence and power perhaps? Seems to have worked out ok for Farage. And the Brexit Party. And the Tory Party.

I mean it’s not as if Spain has a history of fascism or a far right party or a long running territorial dispute with Britain to whip up some trouble over.

You saying the Spanish are not as economically obsessed or risk averse as remainers?

 

[west didsblue]

It might be, or maybe fuck all will happen. God forbid business finds a workable solution

Move operations to the EU would be my guess for those that can.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Move operations to the EU would be my guess for those that can.

Quite possibly. More likely even further afield like Honda.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Quite possibly. More likely even further afield like Honda.

Or Belfast in the case of the WA being passed.

 

[west didsblue]

Or Belfast in the case of the WA being passed.

Or Scotland after they secede and join the EU after No Deal.

 

[bluethrunthru]

It might be, or maybe fuck all will happen. God forbid business finds a workable solution

Nah - just a typical Leave response really - when faced with an awkward question deflect and don't answer - if you don't acknowledge something its not there and if its not there its not a worry - I see pedestrians every day crossing the road with the same attitude - sometimes they get knocked down showing that as a strategy its not as clever as they think. Relying on someone else to take action to avert damage to yourself is a lazy and dangerous thing to do.

 

[Rascal]

He may be past it but a least get old Roger's name right ;)The cleverest conservative is supposed to be the Master of Balliol but now the Master is a Dame!!! This chap is always worth a listen too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00057m8

An interesting fella, doesn't answer my question mind.

I don't expect it will be answered, introspection is not in vogue nowadays.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Or Scotland after they secede and join the EU after No Deal.

I find your thinking a little provincial

Nah - just a typical Leave response really - when faced with an awkward question deflect and don't answer - if you don't acknowledge something its not there and if its not there its not a worry - I see pedestrians every day crossing the road with the same attitude - sometimes they get knocked down showing that as a strategy its not as clever as they think. Relying on someone else to take action to avert damage to yourself is a lazy and dangerous thing to do.

No, I'm not dismissing the dire predictions as a possibility, but I am dismissing them as a certainty. I'm not a great fan of many aspects of capitalism, but it is efficient at finding solutions to business problems. One solution may be the worst case of business shutting/leaving, but I don't trust the opinion on this of anyone who is clearly just cherry picking doomsday scenarios to support their remain position. I could make equally unrealistic arguments that the difficulty of post brexit import/exports would cause a spectacular growth of internal UK markets and industry to neatly support my leave preference.

 

[Rascal]

For me - it seems a straight forward position and everyone should be happy - unless they are simply playing politics

The current deal gets signed off after the WA has been changed to a time-limited backstop - an unfettered one is wholly unacceptable. The backstop should apply for only a maximum of 1 year after the transition period - which should be capped off at 2 years.

Should there be agreement that the backstop is still needed - then the Irish Sea Border comes into effect - providing N.I. the best of both worlds - but I recognise the 'identity issues/sensitivities'.

There should be a strict time-limit on this backstop period - say further 2 years during which N.I. hold a referendum on whether they wish to remain part of the UK - with a border in the Irish Sea until 'issues are resolved (spoiler - they will not be that insurmountable if the backstop does not keep the rest of the UK shackled) - or become part of a united Ireland

Not rocket science

The obvious answer is; Johnson will do whatever it takes to stay in power because it is not about any future relationship, it is about him.

And that is not rocket science

 

[Len Rum]

So 3 million EU citizens living and working in the UK wont have access to the NHS because reciprocal healthcare arrangements have ended and are entirely dependant on EU membership?

Ok Len, we can come back to this as well as the planes in the future, post brexit world.

All these issues will of course have to be negotiated post no deal Brexit.
No agreements are yet in place.
U think everything will be fine, that's ok but please stop pretending by bluster that everything is sorted through agreement or legislation.

 

[BobKowalski]

You saying the Spanish are not as economically obsessed or risk averse as remainers?

I’m saying that by removing rights and protections for U.K. immigrants under EU law they become subject to Spanish immigration laws and immigration laws can be as welcoming or as hostile as the Govt of the day sees fit.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The obvious answer is; Johnson will do whatever it takes to stay in power because it is not about any future relationship, it is about him.

And that is not rocket science

Absolutely. One thing the Tories are historically better at than the other parties is grabbing hold of power and keeping it. Largely because they are generally better at the party discipline thing when lying.

 

[hilts]

I’m saying that by removing rights and protections for U.K. immigrants under EU law they become subject to Spanish immigration laws and immigration laws can be as welcoming or as hostile as the Govt of the day sees fit.

And as I was saying you think the govt of the day is not as economically obsessed or risk averse as remainers?