Another new Brexit thread

[The Stockport Iniesta]

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but what good is a general election with regards to leaving Europe. Aren’t they two separate issues?

No, the numbers will change one way or another in the HoP after a GE, then we can finally move on.

 

[bluejon]

In terms of a blame game it's been almost exclusively a Tory mess/internal civil war but there have been times in the last 3 years when Labour and Corbyn haven't done themselves any favours.

Fully agree with that. I'm not a cheerleader for Labour, and I wish from the bottom of my heart that Jeremy Corbyn would fuck off as far as his little legs can take him.

 

[i kne albert davy]

wartime rations? we'll be all on them if there is a No Deal so Weight watchers will be defunct

You're George Osborne I claim my five,can you let me know when WW3 starts I've been digging my shelter now for over 3 years.

 

[Manc in London]

What if MPs refuse to vote for a GE?

Queen opens new parliamentary session. Johnson loses vote on Queen's speech.

Does he still have clear authority to negotiate with the EU? Parliament gave the PM the authority to notify Article 50. What if Parliament gave itself the authority to revoke Article 50?

I doubt A50 would be revoked by a majority of MPs based on previous votes.


I did enjoy Bercow's take down of Michael Gove.

 

[urban genie]

The number of independant MPs will now be 36 in total after tomorrow as downing st confirm all 21 tories are losing the whip.

 

[Vic]

No, the numbers will change one way or another in the HoP after a GE, then we can finally move on.

It's not going to happen while the saddo in no.10 can fix the date.

 

[jay_mcfc]

I don't know if you're aware, but the UK CAN control immigration, but have chosen NOT to exercise their right to do so. What people – even, seemingly, the government – did not realise is that, since 2006, the Free Movement Directive (to give it its formal title, EU Directive 2004/38/EC) has given us exactly the control over immigration that voters demanded.

Why did Cameron never talk about this during the referendum campaign? Voters were unaware of so much about our relationship with the EU prior to and during the campaign, much of which remained unanswered until long afterwards. The Free Movement Directive is just one of many of these little known factors that mean we need to raise the level of discussion and offer the British people a final say on Brexit.

Where admission is permitted, an EU citizen may remain in the UK for up to three months from the date of entry, provided they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the UK. If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive (employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student) then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.

The UK is free to implement this policy as it sees fit, and yet it does not, while other countries including Belgium and Italy, use this legislation to repatriate thousands of EU migrants each year. If the British public knew that we do have control of our borders even inside the single market, the fear of uncontrolled EU immigration would be dispelled. The fact is that EU migration is not unrestricted, and EU migrants are not permitted to burden the state by claiming their Treaty rights.

Each EU migrant, on average, contributes £2300 more to the exchequer than the average British-born adult, supporting not just themselves but others who rely on the NHS and the UK welfare system. We rely on EU immigration not just for low-skilled workers but across the whole spectrum, from hospitality and construction to financial services and academia – where up to 20 percent of academics at our Russell Group universities are from the EU.

Unemployment is at its lowest rate for decades at 4%, almost 3% lower than the EU average and less than half the EEA average. Without EU migration we will have an acute labour shortage. EU migration has been made a scapegoat for problems in the British economy, entirely unfairly. We should be grateful for it as espoused by a Lincolnshire Leave voting farmer, who after the 2016 referendum didn't have enough UK labour to pick fruit on his farm, so is now a remainer who is still struggling for seasonal farm labour from the UK & the EU through the effects of the referendum.

We should also be grateful for the powers the EU grants us to control it. When Leave campaigners shout ‘Take back control!!!!’, they seem to miss the fact that the Free Movement Directive gives us this control. Thanks to our government’s refusal to acknowledge the nuances of EU immigration legislation, the EU has become a Brexiteer scapegoat for uncontrolled migration, when in fact the fault lies with the very same Tory Party bleating on about leaving the EU without a deal.

I've said this type of thing a few times on here. I've first hand experience of how difficult it can be to be a legal resident in another EU country. Not in the UK though, where the govt do the grand sum of fuck all to try to control EU immigration - then use it as a weapon when the situation requires.

 

[George Hannah]

Go on then, explain how that works.

not tonight

 

[cookster]

Sadly, for the last three years more labour MP's have devoted themselves to ousting corbyn than the tory government

As a Labour supporter for 30 years I couldn't envisage any circumstance where I would vote for Corbyn. Not difficult to understand why half the Labour MP's feel the same.

 

[i kne albert davy]

No, the numbers will change one way or another in the HoP after a GE, then we can finally move on.

I think a General Election is the only way to be done with this now the latest opinion polls put it at a Tory majority of around 60 which would probably see Brexit sorted in someway,with the added bonus of shuffling Corbyn off into state funded retirement.

 

[Saddleworth2]

You won't agree with this I'm sure, but we should revoke Article 50, find a way to leave that has broad consensus and doesn't split the nation in two, re-invoke and then leave, subject to the prevailing timescales.

If we come out, it needs to substantively carry the nation, and not just those that are desperete to leave, or It is bound to fail. And keep failing.

Have you not realised this yet?

It's all about control, which is presently conspicuously absent.

Some people have simply got the process arse about face.

The flaw in that argument is that you will never find a Brexit scenario that can carry a consensus in the country.

 

[bluejon]

Its obviously a Tory mess from start to finish, and earlier in the year I thought Corbyn was being pretty shrewd just keeping the whole thing at arms length. The problem for Labour has been the conflict between the left and the blairites like chukka who were more intent on their own agendas than presenting a united front. I honestly believe that had they done so, they could have taken advantage of disarray in the tory party. Sadly, for the last three years more labour MP's have devoted themselves to ousting corbyn than the tory government

Aye, it's been depressing. The primary cause of all this shit is definitely the Tory party, but a strong opposition would have definitely helped to keep a lid on it.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I don't know if you're aware, but the UK CAN control immigration, but have chosen NOT to exercise their right to do so. What people – even, seemingly, the government – did not realise is that, since 2006, the Free Movement Directive (to give it its formal title, EU Directive 2004/38/EC) has given us exactly the control over immigration that voters demanded.

Why did Cameron never talk about this during the referendum campaign? Voters were unaware of so much about our relationship with the EU prior to and during the campaign, much of which remained unanswered until long afterwards. The Free Movement Directive is just one of many of these little known factors that mean we need to raise the level of discussion and offer the British people a final say on Brexit.

Where admission is permitted, an EU citizen may remain in the UK for up to three months from the date of entry, provided they do not become a burden on the social assistance system of the UK. If an EU citizen does not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive (employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student) then they will not have a right to reside in the UK and may be removed.

The UK is free to implement this policy as it sees fit, and yet it does not, while other countries including Belgium and Italy, use this legislation to repatriate thousands of EU migrants each year. If the British public knew that we do have control of our borders even inside the single market, the fear of uncontrolled EU immigration would be dispelled. The fact is that EU migration is not unrestricted, and EU migrants are not permitted to burden the state by claiming their Treaty rights.

Each EU migrant, on average, contributes £2300 more to the exchequer than the average British-born adult, supporting not just themselves but others who rely on the NHS and the UK welfare system. We rely on EU immigration not just for low-skilled workers but across the whole spectrum, from hospitality and construction to financial services and academia – where up to 20 percent of academics at our Russell Group universities are from the EU.

Unemployment is at its lowest rate for decades at 4%, almost 3% lower than the EU average and less than half the EEA average. Without EU migration we will have an acute labour shortage. EU migration has been made a scapegoat for problems in the British economy, entirely unfairly. We should be grateful for it as espoused by a Lincolnshire Leave voting farmer, who after the 2016 referendum didn't have enough UK labour to pick fruit on his farm, so is now a remainer who is still struggling for seasonal farm labour from the UK & the EU through the effects of the referendum.

We should also be grateful for the powers the EU grants us to control it. When Leave campaigners shout ‘Take back control!!!!’, they seem to miss the fact that the Free Movement Directive gives us this control. Thanks to our government’s refusal to acknowledge the nuances of EU immigration legislation, the EU has become a Brexiteer scapegoat for uncontrolled migration, when in fact the fault lies with the very same Tory Party bleating on about leaving the EU without a deal.

Mate - the Take back control mantra was just what the bigots wanted to hear - once they got that there was no turning back. You only need to see and hear voxpops and radio phone ins to see that the "just get out and get out now merchants" are often the one's who cite FoM as their priority.

 

[bluejon]

The flaw in that argument is that you will never find a Brexit scenario that can carry a consensus in the country.

I think you might. I think if there was a vote between a no deal brexit and leaving the EU but staying in a customs union, that would produce the biggest majority vote and should therefore be what we should do. It's not what I would choose, but I would vote for that.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think you might. I think if there was a vote between a no deal brexit and leaving the EU but staying in a customs union, that would produce the biggest majority vote and should therefore be what we should do. It's not what I would choose, but I would vote for that.

Against remaining? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

 

[bluejon]

Against remaining? I sure as hell wouldn’t.

2 option vote, no-deal brexit or customs union. it's not what i want, i'm strongly remain, but i think that is the only question if put to the public that would give a clear majority, in favour of customs union

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Just loving the death of the Conservative party.

Who’d have ever thought it?

 

[cookster]

Christ, Rees-Mogg is an insufferable ****. Thankfully, I think he’s probably hardened the resolve of the rebels tonight.

Perfect call.

 

[Chris in London]

Is it also wrong that I fancy Jo Swinson?

Very

 

[Pingu the Penguin]

The flaw in that argument is that you will never find a Brexit scenario that can carry a consensus in the country.

Yup - it would have to be Leave without a Deal or revoke Art 50 and remain I think. Given the last 3 years we all know what the risks are around Brexit now, so no excuses for the electorate in terms of not knowing. If they have their say and vote leave again we've gotta go.

The current polling is interesting: 3 years on, with all we know, 48% remain, 43% leave, 8% undeicded. 2 weeks before the 2016 referendum the polling was 47% leave, 44% remain, 8% undecided. Remarkable really!