Another new Brexit thread

[MillionMilesAway]

The prospect of a hard brexit became a possibilety for the EU the first time May's deal was rejected and regardlessthe EU made no big changes any time May came back to negotiate. Boris his madate was self declared to taking the possibillety of a no deal serious and no special move was made by the EU to alter the WA. I think it was a pipedream to think the EU would change position over such a threat.

That's pretty much as I see it too. The Johnson blustering threats of no deal seem at odds with Parliamentary will, and the EU presumably just don't believe them.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Do a little poll of leavers in here

@blueinsa @Mëtal Bikër @mcfc1632

Guys if there is a second referendum would you bother voting again?

Are you sure those three are leavers? They've been pretty unclear on the point.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It would have been implemented by now though if the ERG had voted for May's deal. And if we leave with No Deal there will still be a deal eventually that's no better than the one we've been offered. There's no doubt that politicians and public figures championing Brexit have completely shifted in what they're telling the public about this. They're now arguing that any kind of deal isn't really leaving and i think that is what is holding up the process moreso than the hard-line remainers. A lot of the MPs voting to prevent No Deal Brexit are Leavers.

I don’t want to leave with no deal. I have said that many times.

However what all politicians are saying is what they don’t like nobody is actually saying what they specifically want and what leave deal they will support.

I’m sorry a broad statement about a deal that protects jobs and workers rights doesn’t count as saying what you want.

So with 31/10 coming are the rebels and the opposition going to table a statement of the deal they all agree on .

 

[Rascal]

Its one big mess, I’d had enough of it two years ago and purposely not read anything about it. TV and radio straight off at the hint of Brexit.

I think an election may just be the right way to go though. Im just cacking it at the thought of a Government led by Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell. They would bring this country to its knees, it was bad enough when Labour bankrupted the country last time when that twat Brown sold off the nations gold just before the price went on to hit a record high.
l.

You cannot bankrupt a country, that was a lie. We didn't have a maxed out credit card either. When you sell off Gold what you do is diversify your countries investment portfolio. Brown chose to take Euro's which increased in value just as Gold increased in value. Gold had fallen by 10% when Brown sold it off, it was likely to fall further at that time so a decision was made to move assets to a different area.

He didnt just sell the gold on Cheetham Hill, pocket the money and go on the piss in town.

 

[mcfc1632]

Phillip Hammond when savaging Johnson on the radio this morning said as much - he even pointed out that the first thing this govt did was disband the negotiating TEAM - this exposes his lies again. How many times can this man be allowed to just lie

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-n...-a-quarter-of-size-under-theresa-may-11801624

FFS - how fucking desperately you twist words/events/facts

The utter incompetents that such as Robbins were immediately stood down - something that we should all be cheering as they have demonstrated their incompetence for years. There absolutely needs to be a fresh group of people facing off against the EU - people that are not only capable of undertaking negotiations but also who's starting position is not up the EU's arse

 

[mcfc1632]

well the EU are keeping to their guns - it makes it easy for them when there's nobody sat across the table from you I suppose. I imagine when the shit hits the fan the truth will come out from the EU side and then the true extent of Maydays ineptitude ( mostly revealed in that documentary ) will out and the truth of what Johnson has been up to will be laid bare. I expect there will be a few broadsides fired Farage's way once he can't stand up and pontificate in the chamber.

What really makes it easy for the EU is that they can sit twiddling their thumbs and observe their sycophants at Westminster act to ensure that they will never have to consider making any move

 

[Metal Biker]

Do a little poll of leavers in here

@blueinsa @Mëtal Bikër @mcfc1632

Guys if there is a second referendum would you bother voting again?

It'd depend on the question. If it was exactly the same as last time, then no, because I have already given my opinion and I don't need a follow up "are you suuuuuure....?".

 

[Kazzydeyna]

I, along with I suspect millions of British people, used to be inwardly very proud of the fact that a Hitler or a Mussolini "could never happen here" .

Then we spent over 40 years saying to millions of the population " you don't earn enough money for your vote to be listened to. Well just ignore it" Culminating in this latest bout of machinations .

I fear for the future of our nation. I fear for those on less than 40k a year .

They currently have no political voice whatsoever .

 

[Blue Hefner]

I, along with I suspect millions of British people, used to be inwardly very proud of the fact that a Hitler or a Mussolini "could never happen here" .

Then we spent over 40 years saying to millions of the population " you don't earn enough money for your vote to be listened to. Well just ignore it" Culminating in this latest bout of machinations .

I fear for the future of our nation. I fear for those on less than 40k a year .

They currently have no political voice whatsoever .

You can say a lot about the Brexit vote, but it clearly hasn’t been ignored

 

[Rascal]

What really makes it easy for the EU is that they can sit twiddling their thumbs and observe their sycophants at Westminster act to ensure that they will never have to consider making any move

Why should it be the EU's problem and why should they make any move?

I would have thought it is there job to react, not initiate. They are guarding their status quo, they have no reason at all to make things easier for the UK, why on earth would they?

I really do believe this sort of thinking is a direct consequence of some of the talk we heard during and just after the referendum, talk such as "they need us more than we need them" when obviously they don't and whilst common courtesy would be expected I see no reason for us to be treated with exceptionality.

 

[FlemishDuck]

There absolutely needs to be a fresh group of people facing off against the EU - people that are not only capable of undertaking negotiations but also who's starting position is not up the EU's arse

What really makes it easy for the EU is that they can sit twiddling their thumbs and observe their sycophants at Westminster act to ensure that they will never have to consider making any move

So you rather expect the Eu to go for another round of negotiations now? This after 3 years, a bunch of extensions, a deal made that has been shot down by British parliament multiple times to the point of resignation of the PM only to be replaced now by a PM that commands LESS of a majority???? I'm not sure how much of the WA you'd want to have renegotiated but nothing guarantee's that it passes this apparently fickle parliament, or that it's PM actually survives it's implementation or even sticks around long enough during negotiations. The EU did what it had to do, you were free to leave in any method you wanted based on article 50 and because the UK "wanted to do it with a deal" the EU was "interrested enough to atleast put forward a propposition for a deal". Whining or stamping youre feet on the gound though doesn't do much in negotiations, and the EU is not responsible for the disunity of parliament or lack of ay specific direction in regards to "form of Brexit". At this point the EU is imho perfectly wise in taking of the position of "no more negotiations, pick a choice Britain" the more so for the narrative that it's currently presenting. Youre proving to be as "unrealisticly partisan" as all the others who hold back the actuall resolution to this Brexit if youre not going to accept no-deal being blocked when it is because you don't like it, if anything imho excluding no deal actually is a meaningfull step to determine how Brexit will look like.

 

[Dribble]

If you cannot understand plain English and grasp simple facts that is your issue not mine - and I have quickly developed a view that I do not give a single fuck about what you demand - for me you can just do one.

So in short you make an incorrect & unfounded claim, & then refuse to explain it, or clarify what happened to you in the 90s regarding Europe. I mean, did you get tummy ache on a holiday to Magaluf, & since then you've blamed the Europeans because you got the shits? Anyway, at the FIFTH TIME of asking!

The Irish border is the issue.

The backstop was an agreed solution.

You quoted:

"Certainly the EU have no need to find a solution for the backstop - and neither have the UK"

So why would the EU need to find a solution for the backstop, when the backstop was their agreed solution with the UK government for the Irish border question?

I'll sit here patiently whilst you dig up an answer which makes sense.



Also, whilst you're at it, can you explain what your views on the EU were in the early 90s, & why?

 

[Saddleworth2]

It'd depend on the question. If it was exactly the same as last time, then no, because I have already given my opinion and I don't need a follow up "are you suuuuuure....?".

I think it would need to be specific about the terms of Brexit this time. Even 'no deal' doesn't actually define the type of future relationship with the EU. If the commons had a free vote to choose the preferred option that could be inserted in the current WA and that was set against rescind A 50, do you think that would be a fair question to ask?

 

[Dribble]

Your far 'Far right and Nazi' assertions are getting tedious mate, I said Farage had said 'No deal is better than the
one we've got,' now, I wasn't going to be arsed proving it all over again, but to save any more Nazi accusations I'll
put up your favourite Brexit knocker, O'Brien. I'm sure you'll love his rant about it.

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-nigel-farage-no-deal-james-obrien-andrew-marr-8913481

So it's there, as I said.
Spare me any more lefty bullshit about Nazis, one or two of the 17.4 million probably aren't.

Finally!! Lol :-)

So perhaps you can now explain to me why you want to leave the EU, & on what terms.

BTW, I'm not a lefty. In political terms I'm ambidextrous. :-)

 

[yerwot?]

Are you sure those three are leavers? They've been pretty unclear on the point.

see no evil, speak no evil and hear no evil ( about brexit, obvs)

 

[MillionMilesAway]

So you rather expect the Eu to go for another round of negotiations now? This after 3 years, a bunch of extensions, a deal made that has been shot down by British parliament multiple times to the point of resignation of the PM only to be replaced now by a PM that commands LESS of a majority???? I'm not sure how much of the WA you'd want to have renegotiated but nothing guarantee's that it passes this apparently fickle parliament, or that it's PM actually survives it's implementation or even sticks around long enough during negotiations. The EU did what it had to do, you were free to leave in any method you wanted based on article 50 and because the UK "wanted to do it with a deal" the EU was "interrested enough to atleast put forward a propposition for a deal". Whining or stamping youre feet on the gound though doesn't do much in negotiations, and the EU is not responsible for the disunity of parliament or lack of ay specific direction in regards to "form of Brexit". At this point the EU is imho perfectly wise in taking of the position of "no more negotiations, pick a choice Britain" the more so for the narrative that it's currently presenting. Youre proving to be as "unrealisticly partisan" as all the others who hold back the actuall resolution to this Brexit if youre not going to accept no-deal being blocked when it is because you don't like it, if anything imho excluding no deal actually is a meaningfull step to determine how Brexit will look like.

To my mind, the backstop is there solely because the the Irish government, and therefore the EU, don't trust the UK government.
Everything Cameron did with the EU, and everything since, suggests that they have a point.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

To my mind, the backstop is there solely because the the Irish government, and therefore the EU, don't trust the UK government.
Everything Cameron did with the EU, and everything since, suggests that they have a point.

As last night proved, even the UK government don't trust the UK government.

 

[cibaman]

I think it would need to be specific about the terms of Brexit this time. Even 'no deal' doesn't actually define the type of future relationship with the EU. If the commons had a free vote to choose the preferred option that could be inserted in the current WA and that was set against rescind A 50, do you think that would be a fair question to ask?

I don’t think there is a preferred option that could be inserted in the WA

 

[BobKowalski]

I don't think that's the case, I didn't vote in the last referendum, but If there was another I would vote leave to confirm the result of the first referendum.

The impasse has to be broken somehow and as Parliament is not able to break it, then we the people must.

Not convinced it will make any difference which side ‘wins’. It’s not even about Brexit. Most of the country would probably live with a Norway style Brexit. Out of the political sphere of the EU but retaining the economic links and we all go back to forgetting about the bloody EU. But a Norway style Brexit isn’t Brexit anymore. Leaving with a deal isn’t Brexit enough either. Brexit is now some holy mission that demands all ties must be severed. We’re now rerunning WWII and it’s all gone a bit feral.

The Remain side is also radicalised and they won’t accept Brexit at any price. I’m almost in this camp mostly because I do believe in the European project but also to savour the salty tears of Brexiteers (ok I’m shallow sue me) but whether Remain win or Brexit win it won’t heal anything or change anything. The only reason Brexiteers pushing this have gone a bit nuts is the realisation that they cannot dictate terms to the EU or the E27 which is something they cannot comprehend. No deal is now the goal because it is something the EU can not dictate or control. How much damage it does to us or them is irrelevant it’s all they’ve got left.

So if Brexit ‘wins’ the day all we do is double down on what has been a shitshow of epic proportions. If Remain ‘win’ the day we will never hear the end of the whining about how ‘Brexit’ was stolen and we end up convincing ourselves we were betrayed by some shadowy elite and elect some ghastly Old Etonian to ‘punish them’ and never once notice the irony. Probably because we will be too busy worrying about how we can afford to pay our insurance premiums for the ‘new and improved’ healthcare that we’ve introduced.

Brexit is an external solution to our internal problems. It’s displacement activity for the masses. We can vote for it as many times as we like but it’s an answer to problems it neither created nor can it solve.

 

[Metal Biker]

I think it would need to be specific about the terms of Brexit this time. Even 'no deal' doesn't actually define the type of future relationship with the EU. If the commons had a free vote to choose the preferred option that could be inserted in the current WA and that was set against rescind A 50, do you think that would be a fair question to ask?

It's gotten to the point that as opinions have become so polarised, the options I can see being supported are rescinding A50 until a more suitable option can be found, supporting the WA, or leaving without a deal. At this point (I cannot stress this enough that I mean at THIS point) remaining should not be an option. We need to learn what "leave" option leave voters AND remainers would be supportive of.

Once we know which option has gained the most support (rescind/WA/No deal) we put that against remaining in the EU to the public, to see if those remainers who still feel we should leave as a result of respecting the first referendum result still feel as strongly that we should leave, and for leavers to either change their minds, or back the specifically chosen mandate. Since we're pretty much vote/election happy at the moment, two more would answer the question decisively.

To reiterate, in case I get misunderstood, i'm not against "remain" being an option to vote for, just not yet. I'd rather we found out which leave option remainers/leavers would collectively support/is the most popular from a common ground perspective, before putting the vote back to the people once more that defines our relationship with the EU.