Another new Brexit thread

[Rascal]

I, along with I suspect millions of British people, used to be inwardly very proud of the fact that a Hitler or a Mussolini "could never happen here" .

Then we spent over 40 years saying to millions of the population " you don't earn enough money for your vote to be listened to. Well just ignore it" Culminating in this latest bout of machinations .

I fear for the future of our nation. I fear for those on less than 40k a year .

They currently have no political voice whatsoever .

I fear for the whole country, I have since the rise of neo-liberalism as it is contrary to fairness and equality which I always considered to be an inherent part of British consciousness.

I hope that a few things arise from this whole sorry debacle, such as a written constitution, Proportional Representation, an elected second chamber, a regionalised system of government and more focused local democracy. These things would give a vote a voice. We have a system that is flawed, introducing direct democracy into it has proved to be nothing short of disastrous and its effects have been division and polarisation. As a nation I struggle to think of a time when the nation has been so split on anything since the great Oasis/Blur debate.

There has been no winners from these events, we have all lost whatever our views because the nation is lost and as much as I respect the referendum vote I can not get away from the feeling that it was flawed and damaging, and undertaken for all the wrong reasons. The electorate have been used in a Tory power play, we are their pawns in their struggle for the future direction of our country and under those circumstances can anybody really be described as a winner. They have shredded the confidence of the people in the system in order to remain in power because that is what a party as unprincipled and as power obsessed as the Tory party do, they use the people for their own selfish ends.

For that reason I am delighted that the narcissistic liar got a kicking last night, his desire for power knows no bounds and he would use any means necessary to cement that power because he really believes he was born to be in power. That level of self entitlement is beyond the ken of normal people, we just want to get on and do our best with our lives. If he has to revert to despotism he will, he has that self entitlement and self belief that the nation owes him that right and whoever stands in his way is expendable.

It is a dreadful shame and a stain on our nation that the people have been used in such a fashion, we were promised the earth but should have realised that it was never going to happen because anyone who has witnessed Johnsons machinations over the last 20 years knows it was always about him and if it took a referendum or any other device to deliver him to power he would grasp it with both arms and say I am king, it is my unalienable right and give a huge fuck you to the rest of us.

 

[cibaman]

I don’t think there is a justification for a 2nd referendum unless it is a choice between No Deal and remain.

I think there is a strong case for a 2nd referendum if the alternative is No Deal. No Deal is clearly an extreme outcome from Brexit, voters were repeatedly told during the referendum campaign that we would get a favourable deal. I don’t think it’s an affront to democracy to check whether voters want no deal.

I don’t really see what the justification for a referendum on any other Brexit outcome would be. For example, if we ended up with a soft Brexit, why would that need to be confirmed? It was an outcome that both the Leave and Remain campaigns highlighted as a plausible outcome.

It could be argued that the backstop wasn’t anticipated as a likely outcome of Brexit. But since those who are most against the backstop are also most against a 2nd referendum then I don’t see why May’s deal involving the backstop would require a 2nd referendum.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Why should it be the EU's problem and why should they make any move?

I would have thought it is there job to react, not initiate. They are guarding their status quo, they have no reason at all to make things easier for the UK, why on earth would they?

I really do believe this sort of thinking is a direct consequence of some of the talk we heard during and just after the referendum, talk such as "they need us more than we need them" when obviously they don't and whilst common courtesy would be expected I see no reason for us to be treated with exceptionality.

It's all about saving face in arguments & not admitting the people behind this are self serving liars. Blame everyone but the people behind it.

We have to negotiate a deal with the EU. We have to solve the problem with the Irish border.

We can't do without them. So it's one country vs all the rest.

It is still that same situation if we leave without a withdrawal agreement, just much worse & puts us in a weaker position to negotiate with Trump, or China or anyone, as they know we would be desperate. All the so called 'businessmen' who come on here claiming no deal is ok, are blatant liars, it puts us in a weak position.

The Americans will also block a trade deal, if we fuck up the Irish border situation. They have told us.

We can leave the EU, on the 31st, with a deal & no backstop, if Boris has the 'solutions' he promises to that issue. Just go & give them the solution tomorrow & we can all get on with our lives

He has nothing, he is telling lies. The EU know it, we know it & anyone who cares amongst leave voters know it.

He has no intention of getting through a deal.

 

[Saddleworth2]

It's gotten to the point that as opinions have become so polarised, the options I can see being supported are rescinding A50 until a more suitable option can be found, supporting the WA, or leaving without a deal. At this point (I cannot stress this enough that I mean at THIS point) remaining should not be an option. We need to learn what "leave" option leave voters AND remainers would be supportive of.

Once we know which option has gained the most support (rescind/WA/No deal) we put that against remaining in the EU to the public, to see if those remainers who still feel we should leave as a result of respecting the first referendum result still feel as strongly that we should leave, and for leavers to either change their minds, or back the specifically chosen mandate. Since we're pretty much vote/election happy at the moment, two more would answer the question decisively.

To reiterate, in case I get misunderstood, i'm not against "remain" being an option to vote for, just not yet. I'd rather we found out which leave option remainers/leavers would collectively support/is the most popular from a common ground perspective, before putting the vote back to the people once more that defines our relationship with the EU.

Okay. You would prefer putting that to the people rather than HoC voting for a preferred Brexit option?

 

[Chris in London]

A GE may result in another hung parliament. There is no guarantee it would move us forward one notch. Its a confirmatory referendum thats required, maybe in conjunction with a GE.

I think it probably would. Remain tories in the south of England will not vote for Corbyn but may well vote Lib Dem. Justine Greening’s constituency in Putney is a prime example - safe Tory seat but with a 70% or so remain vote. Moderate Tory voters there won’t have a moderate Tory to vote for - it will either be a brexiter Tory or a remain Lib Dem. I think that demographic thinks Brexit is too important an issue for them to vote Tory. I suspect also the Tories will be wiped out in Scotland.

By contrast, the Labour leave voters may well vote leave again in a referendum, but in a general election in places like South Wales and Sunderland given the choice between Boris and Corbyn I think they vote Corbyn every time. I don’t see Labour losing many heartland seats to Farage because when push comes to shove in a general election where the government of the day is on the line, I suspect they go for someone they think is on their side on a range of issues, not just on one. The pretence offered by some that immigration wasn’t a key driver in the referendum means the media has been far less apoplectic about that issue, and when you take that away the motivation to desert labour in a general election in my view fades sharply away

I can, in short, see all too easily a scenario where the numbers in Parliament aren’t that different after an election to the current position.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Not convinced it will make any difference which side ‘wins’. It’s not even about Brexit. Most of the country would probably live with a Norway style Brexit. Out of the political sphere of the EU but retaining the economic links and we all go back to forgetting about the bloody EU. But a Norway style Brexit isn’t Brexit anymore. Leaving with a deal isn’t Brexit enough either. Brexit is now some holy mission that demands all ties must be severed. We’re now rerunning WWII and it’s all gone a bit feral.

The Remain side is also radicalised and they won’t accept Brexit at any price. I’m almost in this camp mostly because I do believe in the European project but also to savour the salty tears of Brexiteers (ok I’m shallow sue me) but whether Remain win or Brexit win it won’t heal anything or change anything. The only reason Brexiteers pushing this have gone a bit nuts is the realisation that they cannot dictate terms to the EU or the E27 which is something they cannot comprehend. No deal is now the goal because it is something the EU can not dictate or control. How much damage it does to us or them is irrelevant it’s all they’ve got left.

So if Brexit ‘wins’ the day all we do is double down on what has been a shitshow of epic proportions. If Remain ‘win’ the day we will never hear the end of the whining about how ‘Brexit’ was stolen and we end up convincing ourselves we were betrayed by some shadowy elite and elect some ghastly Old Etonian to ‘punish them’ and never once notice the irony. Probably because we will be too busy worrying about how we can afford to pay our insurance premiums for the ‘new and improved’ healthcare that we’ve introduced.

Brexit is an external solution to our internal problems. It’s displacement activity for the masses. We can vote for it as many times as we like but it’s an answer to problems it neither created nor can it solve.

or to quote O'Brien, the whole thing has been 'footballised'.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I don’t think there is a justification for a 2nd referendum unless it is a choice between No Deal and remain.

I think there is a strong case for a 2nd referendum if the alternative is No Deal. No Deal is clearly an extreme outcome from Brexit, voters were repeatedly told during the referendum campaign that we would get a favourable deal. I don’t think it’s an affront to democracy to check whether voters want no deal.

I don’t really see what the justification for a referendum on any other Brexit outcome would be. For example, if we ended up with a soft Brexit, why would that need to be confirmed? It was an outcome that both the Leave and Remain campaigns highlighted as a plausible outcome.

It could be argued that the backstop wasn’t anticipated as a likely outcome of Brexit. But since those who are most against the backstop are also most against a 2nd referendum then I don’t see why May’s deal involving the backstop would require a 2nd referendum.

So Parliament given another shot at May's Deal? Yes/no, and last chance. That makes anyone in the HoC have to decide how much they want Brexit.

If Yes, the UK goes down that route.
If No, referendum Remain/No Deal. The trouble here is that the HoC would have to agree, and the current lot seem to be against No Deal; they're unlikely to vote to risk it - the next lot may be different.

 

[Ban-jani]

I fear for the whole country, I have since the rise of neo-liberalism as it is contrary to fairness and equality which I always considered to be an inherent part of British consciousness.

I hope that a few things arise from this whole sorry debacle, such as a written constitution, Proportional Representation, an elected second chamber, a regionalised system of government and more focused local democracy. These things would give a vote a voice. We have a system that is flawed, introducing direct democracy into it has proved to be nothing short of disastrous and its effects have been division and polarisation. As a nation I struggle to think of a time when the nation has been so split on anything since the great Oasis/Blur debate.

There has been no winners from these events, we have all lost whatever our views because the nation is lost and as much as I respect the referendum vote I can not get away from the feeling that it was flawed and damaging, and undertaken for all the wrong reasons. The electorate have been used in a Tory power play, we are their pawns in their struggle for the future direction of our country and under those circumstances can anybody really be described as a winner. They have shredded the confidence of the people in the system in order to remain in power because that is what a party as unprincipled and as power obsessed as the Tory party do, they use the people for their own selfish ends.

For that reason I am delighted that the narcissistic liar got a kicking last night, his desire for power knows no bounds and he would use any means necessary to cement that power because he really believes he was born to be in power. That level of self entitlement is beyond the ken of normal people, we just want to get on and do our best with our lives. If he has to revert to despotism he will, he has that self entitlement and self belief that the nation owes him that right and whoever stands in his way is expendable.

It is a dreadful shame and a stain on our nation that the people have been used in such a fashion, we were promised the earth but should have realised that it was never going to happen because anyone who has witnessed Johnsons machinations over the last 20 years knows it was always about him and if it took a referendum or any other device to deliver him to power he would grasp it with both arms and say I am king, it is my unalienable right and give a huge fuck you to the rest of us.

Hear hear.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

It's gotten to the point that as opinions have become so polarised, the options I can see being supported are rescinding A50 until a more suitable option can be found, supporting the WA, or leaving without a deal. At this point (I cannot stress this enough that I mean at THIS point) remaining should not be an option. We need to learn what "leave" option leave voters AND remainers would be supportive of.

Once we know which option has gained the most support (rescind/WA/No deal) we put that against remaining in the EU to the public, to see if those remainers who still feel we should leave as a result of respecting the first referendum result still feel as strongly that we should leave, and for leavers to either change their minds, or back the specifically chosen mandate. Since we're pretty much vote/election happy at the moment, two more would answer the question decisively.

To reiterate, in case I get misunderstood, i'm not against "remain" being an option to vote for, just not yet. I'd rather we found out which leave option remainers/leavers would collectively support/is the most popular from a common ground perspective, before putting the vote back to the people once more that defines our relationship with the EU.

The issue with this is there is no coherent / realistic brexit plan that has not been ripped to shreds by ERG types. For many ardent leavers no form of deal is hard enough and any kind of compromise is derided as capitulation.

A soft brexit with a CU is very doable - but very un popular. Anything else requires a backstop type arrangement and that again gets ripped apart. No deal is not really a solution it would just be a vey damaging step where we still need some form of deal to follow.

The same problem would persist - soft workable brexit would be dismised and an unworkable cake and eat version would get the vote but no one can deliver that - so no deal comes back in to play.

So what exactly are you asking people to vote for?

 

[Saddleworth2]

I think it probably would. Remain tories in the south of England will not vote for Corbyn but may well vote Lib Dem. Justine Greening’s constituency in Putney is a prime example - safe Tory seat but with a 70% or so remain vote. Moderate Tory voters there won’t have a moderate Tory to vote for - it will either be a brexiter Tory or a remain Lib Dem. I think that demographic thinks Brexit is too important an issue for them to vote Tory. I suspect also the Tories will be wiped out in Scotland.

By contrast, the Labour leave voters may well vote leave again in a referendum, but in a general election in places like South Wales and Sunderland given the choice between Boris and Corbyn I think they vote Corbyn every time. I don’t see Labour losing many heartland seats to Farage because when push comes to shove in a general election where the government of the day is on the line, I suspect they go for someone they think is on their side on a range of issues, not just on one. The pretence offered by some that immigration wasn’t a key driver in the referendum means the media has been far less apoplectic about that issue, and when you take that away the motivation to desert labour in a general election in my view fades sharply away

I can, in short, see all too easily a scenario where the numbers in Parliament aren’t that different after an election to the current position.

Completely agree. Then we ask for another bloody extension. The whole thing is just getting ridiculous. If we are to leave the EU a preferred exit option has to be agreed. WE are three years in and still not done. It has to be done through referendum or HOC vote (I would prefer the latter). Once that is defined, stick it in the correct bit of the WA and go to the country for a final confirmatory referendum - rescind A50 or leave and negotiate the future relationship. Run it properly and it could start to heal the divisions.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I fear for the whole country, I have since the rise of neo-liberalism as it is contrary to fairness and equality which I always considered to be an inherent part of British consciousness.

I hope that a few things arise from this whole sorry debacle, such as a written constitution, Proportional Representation, an elected second chamber, a regionalised system of government and more focused local democracy. These things would give a vote a voice. We have a system that is flawed, introducing direct democracy into it has proved to be nothing short of disastrous and its effects have been division and polarisation. As a nation I struggle to think of a time when the nation has been so split on anything since the great Oasis/Blur debate.

There has been no winners from these events, we have all lost whatever our views because the nation is lost and as much as I respect the referendum vote I can not get away from the feeling that it was flawed and damaging, and undertaken for all the wrong reasons. The electorate have been used in a Tory power play, we are their pawns in their struggle for the future direction of our country and under those circumstances can anybody really be described as a winner. They have shredded the confidence of the people in the system in order to remain in power because that is what a party as unprincipled and as power obsessed as the Tory party do, they use the people for their own selfish ends.

For that reason I am delighted that the narcissistic liar got a kicking last night, his desire for power knows no bounds and he would use any means necessary to cement that power because he really believes he was born to be in power. That level of self entitlement is beyond the ken of normal people, we just want to get on and do our best with our lives. If he has to revert to despotism he will, he has that self entitlement and self belief that the nation owes him that right and whoever stands in his way is expendable.

It is a dreadful shame and a stain on our nation that the people have been used in such a fashion, we were promised the earth but should have realised that it was never going to happen because anyone who has witnessed Johnsons machinations over the last 20 years knows it was always about him and if it took a referendum or any other device to deliver him to power he would grasp it with both arms and say I am king, it is my unalienable right and give a huge fuck you to the rest of us.

The irony of his situation is that he will be gone in a heartbeat, if he does anything his owners strongly disapprove of.

 

[Metal Biker]

Okay. You would prefer putting that to the people rather than HoC voting for a preferred Brexit option?

Yes I would. Parliament is an absolute joke.

 

[Saddleworth2]

So Parliament given another shot at May's Deal? Yes/no, and last chance. That makes anyone in the HoC have to decide how much they want Brexit.

If Yes, the UK goes down that route.
If No, referendum Remain/No Deal. The trouble here is that the HoC would have to agree, and the current lot seem to be against No Deal; they're unlikely to vote to risk it - the next lot may be different.

No deal solves nothing as you still need to negotiate a future relationship from a weaker position.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Yes I would. Parliament is an absolute joke.

I can understand why people would think that :-)

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

So Parliament given another shot at May's Deal? Yes/no, and last chance. That makes anyone in the HoC have to decide how much they want Brexit.

If Yes, the UK goes down that route.
If No, referendum Remain/No Deal. The trouble here is that the HoC would have to agree, and the current lot seem to be against No Deal; they're unlikely to vote to risk it - the next lot may be different.

I personally think they need to put it to a Mays WA/revoke vote in the house. With an immediate GE to follow. Just put this to bed one way or another.

 

[Metal Biker]

The issue with this is there is no coherent / realistic brexit plan that has not been ripped to shreds by ERG types. For many ardent leavers no form of deal is hard enough and any kind of compromise is derided as capitulation.

A soft brexit with a CU is very doable - but very un popular. Anything else requires a backstop type arrangement and that again gets ripped apart. No deal is not really a solution it would just be a vey damaging step where we still need some form of deal to follow.

The same problem would persist - soft workable brexit would be dismised and an unworkable cake and eat version would get the vote but no one can deliver that - so no deal comes back in to play.

So what exactly are you asking people to vote for?

A soft brexit without a CU is also doable. My only issue with a backstop was how the people of NI thought about it, and the majority concensus is they're fine with it, so I am too.

All these questions you're asking me to solve, i've just said, put them all on the table and see which one wins out, slowly eliminating the most unpopular until we are left with one decisive choice vs remain.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I fear for the whole country, I have since the rise of neo-liberalism as it is contrary to fairness and equality which I always considered to be an inherent part of British consciousness.

I hope that a few things arise from this whole sorry debacle, such as a written constitution, Proportional Representation, an elected second chamber, a regionalised system of government and more focused local democracy. These things would give a vote a voice. We have a system that is flawed, introducing direct democracy into it has proved to be nothing short of disastrous and its effects have been division and polarisation. As a nation I struggle to think of a time when the nation has been so split on anything since the great Oasis/Blur debate.

There has been no winners from these events, we have all lost whatever our views because the nation is lost and as much as I respect the referendum vote I can not get away from the feeling that it was flawed and damaging, and undertaken for all the wrong reasons. The electorate have been used in a Tory power play, we are their pawns in their struggle for the future direction of our country and under those circumstances can anybody really be described as a winner. They have shredded the confidence of the people in the system in order to remain in power because that is what a party as unprincipled and as power obsessed as the Tory party do, they use the people for their own selfish ends.

For that reason I am delighted that the narcissistic liar got a kicking last night, his desire for power knows no bounds and he would use any means necessary to cement that power because he really believes he was born to be in power. That level of self entitlement is beyond the ken of normal people, we just want to get on and do our best with our lives. If he has to revert to despotism he will, he has that self entitlement and self belief that the nation owes him that right and whoever stands in his way is expendable.

It is a dreadful shame and a stain on our nation that the people have been used in such a fashion, we were promised the earth but should have realised that it was never going to happen because anyone who has witnessed Johnsons machinations over the last 20 years knows it was always about him and if it took a referendum or any other device to deliver him to power he would grasp it with both arms and say I am king, it is my unalienable right and give a huge fuck you to the rest of us.

I agree with you other than one thing. How can you think the way you do and respect the referendum result. It was nothing but an almighty con trick on the British People, one that has caused more damage than anything since the second world war. If it doesn't break the Union I will be extremely surprised.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I personally think they need to put it to a Mays WA/revoke vote in the house. With an immediate GE to follow. Just put this to bed one way or another.

That would certainly make it black and white, and has the same effect of making MPs decide. All those who voted for it the last time around have already shown their colours.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Completely agree. Then we ask for another bloody extension. The whole thing is just getting ridiculous. If we are to leave the EU a preferred exit option has to be agreed. WE are three years in and still not done. It has to be done through referendum or HOC vote (I would prefer the latter). Once that is defined, stick it in the correct bit of the WA and go to the country for a final confirmatory referendum - rescind A50 or leave and negotiate the future relationship. Run it properly and it could start to heal the divisions.

The Tory party & Farage's gangsters, should run for election with a set date, for a no deal Brexit.

Do it sensibly, so they can prepare for a no deal exit on a set date, if they win, let's say a year from now & minimise the damage caused.

If the other parties campaign against a no deal Brexit & win more seats than the Tory/Farage alliance then it's off the table.

 

[jay_mcfc]

I fear for the whole country, I have since the rise of neo-liberalism as it is contrary to fairness and equality which I always considered to be an inherent part of British consciousness.

I hope that a few things arise from this whole sorry debacle, such as a written constitution, Proportional Representation, an elected second chamber, a regionalised system of government and more focused local democracy. These things would give a vote a voice. We have a system that is flawed, introducing direct democracy into it has proved to be nothing short of disastrous and its effects have been division and polarisation. As a nation I struggle to think of a time when the nation has been so split on anything since the great Oasis/Blur debate.

There has been no winners from these events, we have all lost whatever our views because the nation is lost and as much as I respect the referendum vote I can not get away from the feeling that it was flawed and damaging, and undertaken for all the wrong reasons. The electorate have been used in a Tory power play, we are their pawns in their struggle for the future direction of our country and under those circumstances can anybody really be described as a winner. They have shredded the confidence of the people in the system in order to remain in power because that is what a party as unprincipled and as power obsessed as the Tory party do, they use the people for their own selfish ends.

For that reason I am delighted that the narcissistic liar got a kicking last night, his desire for power knows no bounds and he would use any means necessary to cement that power because he really believes he was born to be in power. That level of self entitlement is beyond the ken of normal people, we just want to get on and do our best with our lives. If he has to revert to despotism he will, he has that self entitlement and self belief that the nation owes him that right and whoever stands in his way is expendable.

It is a dreadful shame and a stain on our nation that the people have been used in such a fashion, we were promised the earth but should have realised that it was never going to happen because anyone who has witnessed Johnsons machinations over the last 20 years knows it was always about him and if it took a referendum or any other device to deliver him to power he would grasp it with both arms and say I am king, it is my unalienable right and give a huge fuck you to the rest of us.

Spectacularly true. A blinding post. But the real sad thing is not only have there been no winners but there can be no winners and there won’t be any winners. A country as divided as this just means every solution that’s found short term will just be kicking the can down the road.