Another new Brexit thread

[M18CTID]

Only if article 50 is revoked, EU budgets are due in May so there'll be no extensions past then.

Fair enough - I could well be wrong then. I just see the whole thing dragging on and on though

 

[FlemishDuck]

One of your sentiments I agree with is “political apathy seems high nowadays” A lot of people really don’t give two fucks, politicians should make major decisions and live or die by them. The whole Brexit issue has divided parties and the public. Some thought Brexit meant no more foreigners allowed into the UK. They had a vote like everyone else, fucking scary.

To be frank, as someone who's in favour of direct democracy i lament the UK's use of a referendum to the disfavour of it's reputation and of how it could and should be employed. A potentially well organised system of direct democracy has proven merrit and precedent as employed by the Swiss. They even have people voluntarily raising their own taxes by referundum to pay for infrastructure projects, it's not a perfect system as nothing is but arguably they are "experienced" with it.

In fact, in a direct democracy the people would also be able to override parliament and end Brexit by any form they can get the required support for. Sure, that form might prove bad as an outcome and against the advice of parliament but it's up to the people then to take lessons from the result. It is a very legit system and in the Swiss form it still has a parliament deciding over most things that the people arn't bothered to decide themselves upon in referendum, it seems to politicly engage the Swiss withought taking too much of their time.

Back to contemporary British politics, and i must say that the "ye old customs and procedures" that govern parliament seem to be taken "rather lightly" nowadays if it spawns referendums where it shouldn't. To then even be visibly confused by legitimacy up in the HoC (shees) all the while that parliament is mobilizing over in what it calls "a historic day of protecting democracy" while a procedure for proroguing is being abbused in the most obvious way ever. Well lest say "the current political genneration is testing the limits of their power in a way not seen since hmm the 1st triumvirate"?

 

[Neville Kneville]

No mate, thats a cheap answer. The same for Labour supporter that wants to vote to leave. Do they vote Tory? It ain't going to happen so a GE will never be a true reflection of what the country wants on this issue. Run both a confirmatory referendum and a GE on the same day would be cleanest.

Yes.

Vote Tory or Farage, if it's that important to you. If it isn't so important, then vote your usual way.

Vote Tory then vote them out again, in a couple of years, if you are so desperate to leave.

I would vote against Boris Johnson & Mogg, even if they promised to remain & everyone else promised to leave.

They are evil cunts.

 

[bluejon]

But some of the options are not workable. What is the point of a referendum on something that can't be delivered. That just puts us back to 2016 where the nation voted for an easy deal where we hold all the cards.

I have a big issue with any referendum on this as it is just to technical and it becomes a contest between reality and bluster. The mess we are in is because bluster one last time and could win again. My support for a 2nd ref is driven by the fact it is a 50:50 chance that remain wins and that gets us out. Another vote to leave solves nothing.

That depends on whether brexit is specified if there is another referendum i.e. may's deal, no deal, customs union. It was that complete lack of detail in the first referendum that landed us all in this complete shit show in the first place. If it is specified, and the country votes for that, then parliament knows what it needs to do. If it isn't, then you are absolutely correct, as every leaver will be convinced their version of leave is the one everyone else voted for.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Thanks for the reply and I agree that recent events will have ratcheted up the support for Scotland leaving the UK - but...…………….

My contention - which based on the indyref happening some 2-3 years after the UK had genuinely left the EU is that - when you set aside emotions and jingoism that the it is far more likely that Scotland would vote to remain in the UK with a larger majority than previously.

For me this is the more likely scenario because for that not to be the case it must mean that for the last 3 years Remainers on here and in the press have been out and out lying (more than is obvious).

Take, let's say, the top 10 arguments put forward by Remainers for the UK not to leave the EU and apply them to Scotland leaving the UK.

Just as a starter:

1. Importance of trade with the established key export markets

2. Importance to trade of being close to markets

3. BobK's favourite - ".....it is going to be very hard to unravel 40 years of increased integratio...….."

4. Free movement across the borders

5. The scope and size of the divorce bill - including share of national debt - that will need to be negotiated first

etc. etc.

If these are difficult in the context of the UK leaving the EU - they are utterly insurmountable in the context of Scotland Leaving the UK

Then there are other factors specific to the UK Scotland as well

And then Scotland would have to gain accession to the EU as a new entrant and comply to all the regulations and restrictions that come with that

So all these subjects and more will come out to the awareness of the Scottish voting public - an electorate that even in these peak time for support for Scotland to Leave the UK hardly secures a majority.

No - when heads of Scottish voters comes to consider these issues rather than the nationalist fuelled rhetoric - there is IMO very little chance indeed that Scotland would vote to leave the Union - if the UK has already left the EU.

If the UK has left the EU and the apocalypse has not been quite the Tsunami that was forecast - I think that there is zero chance

If the UK has left the EU and there has been significant difficulties - I also think there is not much more than zero chance - because Scotland will be faced with pouring on top of the issues that would already be prevailing the much more significant issues that would result from leaving the UK.

Look on the bright side though - the ongoing events seem to evidence that the EU, through its acolytes, will successful force abandonment of Brexit and this paves the way for a future Indyref against a backdrop where the decision can be driven by the heart.

We have had this conversation already so you know my views.
It certainly needs a good campaign from wee Nicky and I bet she will not fall into the same trap as leavers did. She will have to have answers to questions and a properly constructed plan. You continually underestimate the damage the Tories continue to do to any remaining sentiment of support in Scotland though. Ruth resigning left no unionist leadership in Scotland. Its not a shoe in but your zero chance is frankly laughable and destroys any reasonable points that you might make.

 

[Metal Biker]

Its the obvious answer. If it doesn't happen its because the parties are still looking for political advantage rather than whats best for the country.

Which is the main reason I call them all a joke.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

I'm sticking by my prediction of yesterday that we'll still be in the EU this time next year

I said the day after the result we'd never leave based on the closeness of those votes. I'm sticking to that.

 

[BobKowalski]

They thought. They've done so out of their own self interests. How do their Conservative constituents, whom they elected to a seat in Parliament, feel about their decision?

Will they be given an opportunity to remove them from the HoC for their actions? What's this; "Opposition parties will not back an election".
They're acting in contrast to how many people feel and want their MP's to act. They are not representing the people, they are representing a minority viewpoint and telling the rest what they should think.

MPs represent their entire constituency not just the people who elect them. And MPs have to act in good conscience and use their own judgement not just blindly follow. If the electorate disapproves then they can vote them out. It’s no different to Labour MPs Hoey and Mann voting with the Govt. They are following their own conscience. I think they are wrong but I don’t have a problem with them doing it.

 

[Metal Biker]

But some of the options are not workable. What is the point of a referendum on something that can't be delivered. That just puts us back to 2016 where the nation voted for an easy deal where we hold all the cards.

I have a big issue with any referendum on this as it is just to technical and it becomes a contest between reality and bluster. The mess we are in is because bluster one last time and could win again. My support for a 2nd ref is driven by the fact it is a 50:50 chance that remain wins and that gets us out. Another vote to leave solves nothing.

It's not another vote to "leave", it's a vote to decide which option would the people find most preferable, then putting that against remaining.

All you want to do is just remain. Forget everything, and just remain. Sorry, but that's not acceptible to many people.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Yes.

Vote Tory or Farage, if it's that important to you. If it isn't so important, then vote your usual way.

Vote Tory then vote them out again, in a couple of years, if you are so desperate to leave.

I would vote against Boris Johnson & Mogg, even if they promised to remain & everyone else promised to leave.

They are evil cunts.

Repeating the same point doesnt improve it. And by the way you seem to be confusing me with a Brexiter. I wouldn't piss on Johnson if he was on fire never mind vote for him. That doesn't mean that some would, simply because they couldn't vote for Corbyn. Why are you so against a confirmatory referendum?

 

[Saddleworth2]

Which is the main reason I call them all a joke.

If it is I ain't laughing :-(

 

[Metal Biker]

MPs represent their entire constituency not just the people who elect them. And MPs have to act in good conscience and use their own judgement not just blindly follow. If the electorate disapproves then they can vote them out. It’s no different to Labour MPs Hoey and Mann voting with the Govt. They are following their own conscience. I think they are wrong but I don’t have a problem with them doing it.

And they're ignoring many of those people in their constituency by favouring what they think is best and not the opinions of their constituents. They're acting like they have "divine right" or something. They are the representative of all their constituents, yes, but are they representing all their constituents thoughts or acting how they think things should proceed.

For that I don't support them in those actions, but as stated in an earlier post, it's not the reason I think Parliament is a joke.

 

[George Hannah]

Go on then, explain how that works.

I owe you my take on why Brown & Milliband as well as Corbyn are all responsible for this debacle and the unelectability of the Labour Party and the reasons why we have had 20 years of Tory misery inflicted on us. In short, the 2010 Rule Change to Leadership Elections was the price paid by Brown to the unions for becoming PM. It enabled the wrong Milliband to be installed as his successor and he obediently opened the whole party up to the Stalinist mob we've got now.

 

[Metal Biker]

If it is I ain't laughing :-(

Hardly raised a chuckle myself these past few years. Thank fuck for City, eh?

 

[bluejon]

I owe you my take on why Brown, Milliband as well as Corbyn are all responsible for this debacle and the unelectability of the Lbour Party and the reasons why we have had 20 years of Tory misery inflicted on us. In short, the 2010 Rule Change to Leadership Elections was the price paid by Brown to the unions for becoming PM. It enabled the wrong Milliband to be installed as his successor and he obediently opened the whole party up to the Stalinist mob we've got now.

I agree with some of what you wrote there. I am fully of the opinion that David Milliband would have got into power, but you can't blame Labour for the actions of the conservative party. Cameron and chums are the primary cause of this shit, Labour were the secondary causes. As I've said many times however, I really wish Corbyn would just fuck off now.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Repeating the same point doesnt improve it. And by the way you seem to be confusing me with a Brexiter. I wouldn't piss on Johnson if he was on fire never mind vote for him. That doesn't mean that some would, simply because they couldn't vote for Corbyn. Why are you so against a confirmatory referendum?

I'm not confusing you with anything & I'm not against a referendum.

You brought up Labour voters who want to leave. If they want to leave, let them side with the people who are behind it. Same with Tory people who want to remain; stop supporting the cunts who are behind it.

The problem with the last election was nobody took a position on anything apart from Farage's Nazi party.

 

[Dribble]

I'd sooner not list reasons again, already discussed in depth at someone's beck and call, you're assumptions that nobody
said anything are now refuted, and your question answered, plus another rant about everyone not agreeing being
nazi lovers is facile crap I'm sick of, in all honesty.

So you cannot explain your reasons for wanting to leave the EU? Figures!

I'll assume you don't actually know & are quite happy to sleepwalk back into a pre-war Britain where the common man was largely ignored & the elite & ruling classes could do what they liked with no restraint.....

Has it ever crossed your mind why Nazi Nige & his jack boot, goose stepping sycophants want out of Europe? Have you considered what they mean when they say 'We' want our country back?

Germany had the same problems in the 1930s. Thanks a lot mate.

Also, what are your views on Scotland, Ireland, Spain & Argentina wanting their countries back? I assume you support their claims too?

 

[Vic]

Your far 'Far right and Nazi' assertions are getting tedious mate, I said Farage had said 'No deal is better than the
one we've got,' now, I wasn't going to be arsed proving it all over again, but to save any more Nazi accusations I'll
put up your favourite Brexit knocker, O'Brien. I'm sure you'll love his rant about it.

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-nigel-farage-no-deal-james-obrien-andrew-marr-8913481

So it's there, as I said.
Spare me any more lefty bullshit about Nazis, one or two of the 17.4 million probably aren't.

It's actually ambiguous isn't it? "No deal is better than the rotten deal that we have at the moment". That could mean that even if the present deal is rotten, there is no deal that would be better.

I'm sure that's not what he meant, but it now seems close to the truth. It doesn't outweigh the umpteen times he advocated that we could be like Norway. It's still a stretch to say he advocated leaving without a deal.

 

[Metal Biker]

So you cannot explain your reasons for wanting to leave the EU? Figures!

I'll assume you don't actually know & are quite happy to sleepwalk back into a pre-war Britain where the common man was largely ignored & the elite & ruling classes could do what they liked with no restraint.....

Has it ever crossed your mind why Nazi Nige & his jack boot, goose stepping sycophants want out of Europe? Have you considered what they mean when they say 'We' want our country back?

Germany had the same problems in the 1930s. Thanks a lot mate.

Also, what are your views on Scotland, Ireland, Spain & Argentina wanting their countries back? I assume you support their claims too?

You assume what you want.

You're so late to the party (and haven't exactly made a good first impression) I doubt anyone wishes to explain their reasons to you after having done so time and time again on the other thread.

So assume away.

 

[BobKowalski]

And they're ignoring many of those people in their constituency by favouring what they think is best and not the opinions of their constituents. They're acting like they have "divine right" or something. They are the representative of all their constituents, yes, but are they representing all their constituents thoughts or acting how they think things should proceed.

For that I don't support them in those actions, but as stated in an earlier post, it's not the reason I think Parliament is a joke.

The only judgement they can rely on is their own. That is all we can ask. Take account of the many varied views and come to your best judgement for your constituents and the country. The electorate will then pass its verdict at the next election.

I agree with Clark and the other rebels. I do not agree with Hoey and Mann. But all came by their decisions through acting in good conscience.