Yeah the fake outrage about this vote is incredible from a group of people who have used every underhand, devious tactic in the book to try and ensure that a hard or no-deal Brexit goes ahead, not to mention the many dodgy ways that the referendum was won in the first place.It's all part of the process of moving to a totalitarian state. Discredit the democrats and invoke the 'will of the people '.
It is all a moot point now that the EU's acolytes at Westminster have undermined the UK's negotiating position, but had the No-Deal option been available:And it’s on us to come up with the alternative, particularly considering that requirement was our suggestion to begin with.
Do you think Johnson will bring forward a manifesto that will alienate a great number of their core support?I seem to recall the opinion polls forecasting May would increase her majority prior to the 2017 GE - that worked out well.
That parliament,during September/October, would act to stop a No-Deal Brexit certainly would have happened - the acolytes have been playing the game of keep pushing the date back and wait for everybody to get fed up and have a 2nd referendumNever would have happened if they’d not decided to prorogue parliament for the sake of four days debate, Cummings really showing he’s a genius so far...
This will keep going as a remain vs leave debate, it hasn’t really been that for a while. It’s all been down to the ineptitude of the conservative government and some of them turning further to the right and creating the split that has caused all of this.
In these circumstances Johnson has to go 'all in'. He may not win the GE to follow, but there is no point him winning it and then having 20+ of his MPs voting against his manifesto. Certainly not aimed at you - but it is amusing to read/hear all the faux outrage generated about how mean it has been against Churchill's grandson and other privileged people from a lot of people who would have only had contempt for them before.Saw them on Newsnight.
They confirmed that Boris has not negotiated sincerely for a deal.
This was all planned and that the Tory party has been taken over by a Brexit Right wing element.
This from within.
Also Churchill’s nephew and Clarke say that they are for leaving with a deal but what Boris is looking for is not achievable.
So if as expected the GE doesn’t get through with a 2/3 majority if no deal is not safely dispatched of, what’s then?
Suppose it depends on whether the bill gets passed tomorrow.
The impression given tonight was that the 21 wouldn’t have done what they did if they were not prepared to carry the bill tomorrow.
There are a few amendments to be discussed first that may swing some however.
Interesting times.
Maybe not, but probably in the hope that the democracy deniers can be stymied.Do a little poll of leavers in here
@blueinsa @Mëtal Bikër @mcfc1632
Guys if there is a second referendum would you bother voting again?
So you don't like what Robbins did in negotiations, and prefer the present approach of doing nothing to find a solution.It is all a mot point now that the EU's acolytes at Westminster have undermined the UK's negotiating position, but had the No-Deal option been available:
It is for the EU to confirm that it will be removed - then alternative arrangements could have been established during the transition period - I have posted an alternative to the backstop and if I can think of how it can work then I am sure that the two negotiating teams - acting in good faith can
I hear a lot about how the backstop was the UK's idea - but it is not as simple as that and just reflects how negotiations can work.
It is a great outcome and, in this case a credit to the professional EU negotiating team - when you get the other party to accept that there is a red line that cannot be removed and make them scurry around for a solution. That is what that utter empty suit Robbins did. Once Robbins accepted the need for a backstop and May's idiocy had left her dependent on the DUP then this poisonous option came forward - yes by the UK but directed by the EU due to Robbins stupidly accepting the red line which was due to him being a shit negotiator and not committed to leaving the EU
Emphasising those points along with making some very tasty pledges in his manifesto is the way I expect Johnson will goIts one big mess, I’d had enough of it two years ago and purposely not read anything about it. TV and radio straight off at the hint of Brexit.
I think an election may just be the right way to go though. Im just cacking it at the thought of a Government led by Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell. They would bring this country to its knees, it was bad enough when Labour bankrupted the country last time when that twat Brown sold off the nations gold just before the price went on to hit a record high.
Read about Corbyns plans to tax inheritance on a lifetime basis, he will do anything to take money from those who have saved, invested or inherited money so he can give it away. We’re not talking just the super rich here, it concerns the hard working man and woman who have been sensible with their finances.
Brexit has been a three year disease, hopefully it’s not terminal.
Maybe not, but probably in the hope that the democracy deniers can be stymied.
But what Saddleworth is suggesting is just the typical Remainer approach - not democracy - just get Brexit cancelled, but preferably in a way that it can be seen as the will of the people - so our duplicity is not too obvious
Let's see the options he suggests:
1. An utterly shit deal that anyone caring for the UK's best interests could not vote for Vs
2. Remaining
Yep - that should have loaded the dice sufficiently in the favour of those that simply wish to stop Brexit - not even Remain Vs No-Deal
Now how would Remainers on here view a Confirmatory vote where the options were:
1. An utterly shit deal that anyone caring for the UK's best interests could not vote for Vs
2. No-Deal
Because that would be a lot more honest, delivering against the 1st referendum and democratic - but, a lot of the time, it seems democracy is only relevant when it supports what Remainers want
In that last para you have gotten what my views wrong - I have never been of the 'they need us etc. viewWhy should it be the EU's problem and why should they make any move?
I would have thought it is there job to react, not initiate. They are guarding their status quo, they have no reason at all to make things easier for the UK, why on earth would they?
I really do believe this sort of thinking is a direct consequence of some of the talk we heard during and just after the referendum, talk such as "they need us more than we need them" when obviously they don't and whilst common courtesy would be expected I see no reason for us to be treated with exceptionality.
In summary:So in short you make an incorrect & unfounded claim, & then refuse to explain it, or clarify what happened to you in the 90s regarding Europe. I mean, did you get tummy ache on a holiday to Magaluf, & since then you've blamed the Europeans because you got the shits? Anyway, at the FIFTH TIME of asking!
The Irish border is the issue.
The backstop was an agreed solution.
You quoted:
"Certainly the EU have no need to find a solution for the backstop - and neither have the UK"
So why would the EU need to find a solution for the backstop, when the backstop was their agreed solution with the UK government for the Irish border question?
I'll sit here patiently whilst you dig up an answer which makes sense.
Also, whilst you're at it, can you explain what your views on the EU were in the early 90s, & why?
no leader of the opposition has ever refused the opportunity for an election.
Why is a GE needed? It could result in a parliament exactly the same as this with the largest party 30 seats short of an overall majority.The Lords have agreed to pass the bill by friday so it can go to the house on Monday and should become law, Johnson will then do a GE vote again and it will go through before parliament shuts back down.
Oct 15th election will probably happen
That's because Remainers are now the majority. It's you that doesn't want to test that.Maybe not, but probably in the hope that the democracy deniers can be stymied.
But what Saddleworth is suggesting is just the typical Remainer approach - not democracy - just get Brexit cancelled, but preferably in a way that it can be seen as the will of the people - so our duplicity is not too obvious
Let's see the options he suggests:
1. An utterly shit deal that anyone caring for the UK's best interests could not vote for Vs
2. Remaining
Yep - that should have loaded the dice sufficiently in the favour of those that simply wish to stop Brexit - not even Remain Vs No-Deal
Now how would Remainers on here view a Confirmatory vote where the options were:
1. An utterly shit deal that anyone caring for the UK's best interests could not vote for Vs
2. No-Deal
Because that would be a lot more honest, delivering against the 1st referendum and democratic - but, a lot of the time, it seems democracy is only relevant when it supports what Remainers want
Well a significant element of Tory support falls broadly into the "one nation" category and he's already managing to alienate them and he's fooling himself if he thinks he can get an overall majority without their votes.Do you think Johnson will bring forward a manifesto that will alienate a great number of their core support?
ok - zero was flippant - replace it with highly unlikely that - should the UK have not suffered badly following Brexit that Scotland would leave the UnionWe have had this conversation already so you know my views.
It certainly needs a good campaign from wee Nicky and I bet she will not fall into the same trap as leavers did. She will have to have answers to questions and a properly constructed plan. You continually underestimate the damage the Tories continue to do to any remaining sentiment of support in Scotland though. Ruth resigning left no unionist leadership in Scotland. Its not a shoe in but your zero chance is frankly laughable and destroys any reasonable points that you might make.
Be good if you could answer the points I made in the other postAfter the Brexit fiasco that could probably be looked at. What it will be is a choice to go it alone and be readmitted to the EU, which we will, don’t believe the shit about that, it will happen.
Project Fear will kick in because if we crash out then the economic situation in the areas who will be affected by Brexit will be worse. They know that, and if you don’t believe me ask yourself thus. If we are such a burden why hold on to us it’s bullshit. We are discovering new oil fields, another on the west coast that will be a goer once we get rid of Trident on the Clyde.
Yes supporting parties are predicted to win over 70% of the seats if Bawbag Boris has an election. The currency question for me is a no brainer. The £ is at its lowest level in 30 years. It will fall through the floor after brexit and I would have no issue going with the Euro. We can still keep the £ as it is an internationally traded currency and to be honest having us still use it will stabalse it. If we leave it, it will fall even further.
A lot to play for and I’m not starting to count chickens. But, Boris, Hard Exit, any exit, continued Tory rule, a hung parliament, and increase in SNP seats all points to enough has changed.
In the last one 300k vote swing and we would have won. 76% of the 65+ age group voted No, winning it for them. A lot of them will be dead now replaced by younger voters who are predominantly Yes. Also in the last one, every age group apart from 65+ voted a majority Yes.
I hope we hold our nerve, but I am not totally convinced yet. Or probably will be until we win.