Another new Brexit thread

[Ban-jani]

This does not imply that the NHS would have got £350 million a week. It suggests we send a lot of money to the EU and we could be funding our NHS with more (unspecified) money. The £350 million is obviously underhand, as was the poster that replaced "let's fund our" with "let's give it to the".

The figure is overinflated.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

We don't send £350m a week to the EU though

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

I know, that's why I wrote words to that effect.

 

[Ban-jani]

So many remainers are happy to rewrite history when it suits them. I don't think this does anything for the future good will of the country. Many self righteous MPs from all parties could be in for a big shock come the next GE. When ever that will be lol.

How are people rewriting history?

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

The figure is overinflated.

ditto

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

You conveniently forget we live in a parliamentary democracy and MPs are free to vote on what they think is best for their constituents and the country - if you disagree with your MPs decision you are free to vote them out. Unless you know a better system to run a country ?

Leavers has the opportunity to ‘Brexit’ and have failed.

PR would be my choice. Always has been. Never been a fan of first past the post.

One minute you accept that the MPs have a right to vote down what they dont like given the sytem we have but in the next sentence you are unable see that the majority of remain MPs have repeatedly voted down brexit at every opportunity. And its all the brexiteers fault. What a strange thought process. Lol.

You my friend are not balanced in your views on this.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Leavers making complaints about "democracy" better watch out how much of their democracy is being eroded even with the help of the Tory's. You had Jacob Rees mogg complaining about "irregularity's" a few days back but i swear it seems to be the new trend to test the waters of any not-so-well defined procedure or custom nowadays to the point of "challenging democratic foundations". I do wonder if there isn't any more sinister motivation behind that.

Le us consider some of the irregularity's for when it comes to having well defined procedures and democratic institutions? So first of all a binding non-binding referedum is called withought much detail on the leave option when really the use of such referendums is rather unconventional and murky in legal terms. So a few days ago even there was a battle in parliament in regards to "legitimacy" as the conservatives were reffering to the legitimacy given for Brexit trough the non-binding binding referendum whereas the opposition was afcourse refering to the democratc legitimacy given to them trough votes in a parliamnetary democracy. Thats a big and scary socio-political issue imho: who of the 2 is the highest authority now???

Lets besides that look at how the Tory's have been using various procedure's for tactical reasons within parliament like May's "running down the clock" and Boris his proroguing. Not illegal, but easy to argue as being against the spirit of parliamentary democracy. Actually a perfect way to graduatly kill a parliamentary democracy is by having it's politicians seeking all sorts of legal backgates within the limited definitions of procedure's to be able to act beyond the intended capabilety for such within democracy and it shows how much it is happening nowadays.

And now voices are saying that the conservatives are going to filibuster the motion agaist a no deal, and Belgian political analyst gather that Johnson still has a chance as long as he's willing to manipulate and abuse the limitations of the system as he has shown to do. If so, i wouldn't be able to tell what British politics actually are but it would hardly seem as very democratic. I think Brits should be weary as to how much it's politicians are erroding it's democratic institutions and procedures under the guise of Brexit.

Brexit has weaponised government? Parliament? Everything? Everyone?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

PR would be my choice. Always has been. Never been a fan of first past the post.

One minute you accept that the MPs have a right to vote down what they dont like given the sytem we have but in the next sentence you are unable see that the majority of remain MPs have repeatedly voted down brexit at every opportunity. And its all the brexiteers fault. What a strange thought process. Lol.

You my friend are not balanced in your views on this.

I don’t want to sound flippant but all it enforces more in my opinion is that Britain really needs to sort itself out first before dragging us into it.

However that’s not what happened and here we are.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

The problem with the referendum at the very start was it's intention right? It was set up as a opportunist political move, not a honest consultation of the public that was well defined and to be binding in the first place. The lack of detail in the question of Brexit is whats arguably creating a load of issue's now, but then it was opportunist to ask te question so vaguely so to have plenty of leeway afterwards as to fill in "what the people wanted"? Brexit was intended as a vehicle of powerplay rather than one for clear and expedient political resolution?

To give credit to the camp that is against no-deal: Parliament using it's representative legitimacy to forbid a no deal isn't nessecarily perpendicular to legitimacy of a binding non binding referendum to have a Brexit, it simply uses parlements legitimacy to more narroly define what form of leaving is possible. To take a more rediculous example to prove the point: "what if some Brexiteers had propposed war with the EU as a means to exit it"? Would it infringe on the democrtic choice of the people trough a binding non binding referendum if parliament had excluded war as a form of Brexit? I think not???

Oh I don’t know about ridiculous.
There was talk of bombing Ireland last night in one of the threads. :-)

 

[mcfc1632]

So he's just invented the filibuster has he? yeah no it's been used time and time again so nothing unusual about that.
This however is hilarious:

Under Corbyn Labour are reduced to simply being a protest party

 

[FlemishDuck]

Brexit has weaponised government? Parliament? Everything? Everyone?

A good democratic system imho has well defined limits and boundaries. It's not nessecarily healthy for democracy if parlementarians are activly seeking all sorts of holes to opportunely exploit against spirit of normal procedure. It's nothing new from the perspective of political science and it's history to see such a trend and thus one can also be concious of it's potentially bad outcome.


That is about it in a nutshell, the rest was examples of it. What is it that you want to argue?

 

[yerwot?]

This does not imply that the NHS would have got £350 million a week. It suggests we send a lot of money to the EU and we could be funding our NHS with more (unspecified) money. The £350 million is obviously underhand, as was the poster that replaced "let's fund our" with "let's give it to the".

Plausible deniability.....last refuge of a rogue brought to bay, when facts have destroyed lies, when old lies are the new lies because all else has failed. The sinister threats of a vast number of " an angry mob of leavers" is just wishful thinking .. the edl et al have never and will never be vastly numbered. Man the fuckin' barricades, the brexits are cummin, tooled up with withering sarcasm and weapons grade snide remarks and lies. Just imagine the carnage if revoke had happened, swoon, dodged a bullet there.....

 

[mcfc1632]

Is there any particular reason this thread has jumped up so much this evening?

There seems to be a are a few contributing factors along the lines of:

https://forums.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/search/60555502/

;-)

 

[Magicpole]

Be good if you could answer the points I made in the other post

It is for those reasons that I think - if the UK actually ever leaves the EU - that Scotland will Remain in the Union

I will, I haven’t had time.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don’t want to sound flippant but all it enforces more in my opinion is that Britain really needs to sort itself out first before dragging us into it.

However that’s not what happened and here we are.

You’re right, we do.

 

[Magicpole]

It requires a majority North and South.

Well why hasn’t it been triggered? If that was the case the day after the GFA they could have. Isn’t the population of Ireland 3m? Don’t understand.

 

[Neville Kneville]

PR would be my choice. Always has been. Never been a fan of first past the post.

One minute you accept that the MPs have a right to vote down what they dont like given the sytem we have but in the next sentence you are unable see that the majority of remain MPs have repeatedly voted down brexit at every opportunity. And its all the brexiteers fault. What a strange thought process. Lol.

You my friend are not balanced in your views on this.

A large number of remainer MPs have voted for Brexit several times.

A large number of leave MPs have voted against it. The arch opposers to Brexit are now running the Government.

Why are they immune from the responsibility of failing to deliver Brexit, but the remainers are guilty ?

Right now there is yet another of these cunts on TV, explaining how it's 'now' impossible to negotiate Brexit deal because 'no deal' is off the table. Yet Boris Johnson said he had 'solutions' to the problems.

Why not take these solutions to the EU & get a deal, right now ? There is an amendment in the bill, specifying that the whole purpose of it, is to use the extra time to get a deal to leave the EU.

Oh no, say the ERG, it's impossible now.

So there was ONE plan, to try & force the EU to back down.

No 'solutions'. Boris the **** was lying again about thst & those same people, who have done NOTHING so far, to negotiate a Brexit deal, are again breaking their promises & doing fuck all, to facilitate us leaving.

David Davies, in the days after the vote did NOTHING. He didn't even bother turning up half the time.

During that period, the EU were getting their shit together, what was the ERG doing to help bring about Brexit? FUCK ALL.

Since day one, this has been about creating chaos & grabbing power & it's still about that. Now they are most concerned about an election, not Brexit.

Why the fuck are people who voted leave, not holding THEM accountable ?

 

[remember arthur mann]

Politicians playing politics, it certainly has been taken to a new level though.

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Plausible deniability.....last refuge of a rogue brought to bay, when facts have destroyed lies, when old lies are the new lies because all else has failed. The sinister threats of a vast number of " an angry mob of leavers" is just wishful thinking .. the edl et al have never and will never be vastly numbered. Man the fuckin' barricades, the brexits are cummin, tooled up with withering sarcasm and weapons grade snide remarks and lies. Just imagine the carnage if revoke had happened, swoon, dodged a bullet there.....

Nope. An inability on your part to accept that people can decipher information in different ways. For the record, I knew the amount quoted was a clear bending of the truth once I'd had a chance to fact check it. It's how you interpret the wording of the second part. Perhaps you're not able to understand but that's okay, I struggled with parts of yours.

As for revoke, I'm more than comfortable with it - not sure what the rest of the electorate would feel about it though.

 

[mcfc1632]

So you don't like what Robbins did in negotiations, and prefer the present approach of doing nothing to find a solution.

That must be very frustrating when you have all that experience of advising ministers and no-one seems to be listening to you, the one person in Europe with a workable alternative to the backstop.

What an utterly snide and shit post

Some months ago I considered you to be better than the likes of others on here that seem to use snide as there go to style - but you seem to have joined the bandwagon

I just consider that to be clear evidence that you are unable to debate against facts and valid opinions.

I notice that you did not respond to the options I put forward to sort out the border issue - I can understand - it would have required some assessment and debating rather than lazy ad hominem attacks - which is just more of the cheap Remainer side.

I am surprised you have not joined in with Dibble and made a few Nazi comparisons - if you are going to drop down to the ranks of those that behave in this snide manner - you might as well go all the way.

 

[west didsblue]

I would rip the fucking arm out your socket for that.

I think whatever happens now you'll get your independence.
If we leave with No Deal I'd say it was a racing certainty. With the referendum in 2014, a lot voted for the union because of the uncertainty of whether the economy would crash and burn if the Scots ended up outside the EU. If we're outside the EU anyway sufficient people would think that there is little to lose by exiting the UK and applying for EU membership and would take the Euro and everything that goes with it.
Similar story if we leave with a shit deal (because there's no such thing as a good deal) but by not as big a majority.
Even if we remain I think that there has been enough of a breakdown in trust between many in Scotland and the UK establishment to swing many votes towards leave. The attitudes of many English people, some of which can be seen clearly on here, suggests to me that even strong supporters of the union might have second thoughts.
In 2014, I was dead set against Scotland breaking away and thought that those who wanted it were mad, but I wouldn't blame Scotland at all if you decided to get out of this basket case of a country where a significant proportion of the population of the largest entity don't appear to give a shit about you.