Another new Brexit thread

[Vic]

Just imagine a scenario where remain had won in 2016 and for the next three years MPs in parliment had done all they could to overturn the result and get us to leave. Forcing the PM to leave against his will, against the will of the people. Unthinkable isn't it. I wonder how the self righteous remainers would view that scenario? Because that is how 17.4m people feel now.

How do you know? There's only 16m of them left anyway.

 

[Saddleworth2]

ok - zero was flippant - replace it with highly unlikely that - should the UK have not suffered badly following Brexit that Scotland would leave the Union

But - setting aside that error - I am confident that the points I make are factual and the outcome I predict far more likely as heads will win over hearts

I would be interested in seeing thought through counters to what I say rather than homing in on a little faux pas

I already did that mate. Your memory is poor.
The points you make are predictions not facts. Boris often makes the same mistake.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

So just as suspected, not even you know why you want out! You just do because the jack booted, goose-stepping Nazi Nige said so. #Unfuckinbelievable

Like I said, I'm still waiting for one of you to tell me why you want out. You really need to understand what was meant by nazi Nige when he said 'WE want OUR country back'.... I'm sorry to break it to you fella, but the 'WE' & 'OUR' doesn't mean you!

What the fuck is wrong with you pal? you're a nazi obsessed fruitcake, I responded with a request for
your reasons for staying, just to counter this arrogant demand you keep squawking about, I don't really give a toss though, so if you'd kindly
desist from asking again, I would be most grateful.
Basically, offity fuck.

 

[Ban-jani]

Which is the best thread?

Free for all

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

How do you know? There's only 16m of them left anyway.

Just for one second try and imagine that scenario Vic ? Its unthinkable isn't it! Lol

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Maybe not, but probably in the hope that the democracy deniers can be stymied.

But what Saddleworth is suggesting is just the typical Remainer approach - not democracy - just get Brexit cancelled, but preferably in a way that it can be seen as the will of the people - so our duplicity is not too obvious

Let's see the options he suggests:

1. An utterly shit deal that anyone caring for the UK's best interests could not vote for Vs

2. Remaining

Yep - that should have loaded the dice sufficiently in the favour of those that simply wish to stop Brexit - not even Remain Vs No-Deal

Now how would Remainers on here view a Confirmatory vote where the options were:

1. An utterly shit deal that anyone caring for the UK's best interests could not vote for Vs

2. No-Deal

Because that would be a lot more honest, delivering against the 1st referendum and democratic - but, a lot of the time, it seems democracy is only relevant when it supports what Remainers want​

See here we are again ..... the 52% ignoring the 48%...... The majority of remainers I know and a fair few on here want the outcome of the referendum to be honoured(that's Democracy) ... what we don't want is a NO DEAL BREXIT and a DISORDERLY WITHDRAWAL FROM THE EU....because that will f*ck up any chance of a trade deal with the largest trading bloc in the world going forward.

Labour have played a blinder so far.

 

[BosnianBlue]

Just imagine a scenario where remain had won in 2016 and for the next three years MPs in parliment had done all they could to overturn the result and get us to leave. Forcing the PM to leave against his will, against the will of the people. Unthinkable isn't it. I wonder how the self righteous remainers would view that scenario? Because that is how 17.4m people feel now.

Technically, it is not overturning the result though. I don't know what they privately think, but there is clearly a majority that publicly backs honouring the result, it's about the way and conditions of doing it. And that's something you were never been asked about on referendum, it's to be decided in Parliament.

 

[Saddleworth2]

That’s why I can’t stand the cliche that ‘they’re all useles c*nts’’ by some thicko behind there keyboard.
Majority of MPs are hardworking, honest people trying their absolute best for their constituents and country all from different educational backgrounds and upbringings. Whenever someone says ‘they’re all the same’ that is just plain wrong.

News at 10 (that are usually ok) were at it last night referring to what has happened over the last couple of days as chaos in the house. Some of the behaviours have been poor, but the main thrust of parliament vs the government has been far from chaos. Its been logical and thought through.

On a related subject, a sample of headlines from the fail this morning:

'Corbyn steals your vote'
'Corbyn chickens out of letting public go to the polls'
'its time this squabbling, showboating, grotesque circus got out of town for good'
'Labour in turmoil over Brexit'

I don't understand why the Tory party actually fund campaigns when they have large sections of the UK media doing the job for them. The nation has had poison poured into its collective ear for years and we have no chance of reconciling our divisions while this is allowed to go on unabated. Is this a particularly unique UK problem or does similar political bias exist in other European countries. What is it like in Ireland for example?

 

[stonerblue]

In summary:

You are just squirming and twisting words in your desperation - you are not alone.

The answer is in your own post. You say:

"The Irish border is the issue.

The backstop was an agreed solution."

You post what I quoted:

"Certainly the EU have no need to find a solution for the backstop - and neither have the UK"​

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct - I did post that and it is self-evident that neither party needs a solution to the backstop because - as you clearly say - it is not the backstop that is the issue - it is the border. Simply find another solution to what is the issue - not a solution to what is a potential solution - not rocket science if you have any capability to think

Beyond that - In the short time you have been posting on here you have ensured that you have quickly made people consider you to be someone who is not worth time engaging with

All your disgusting references and comparisons to Nazis etc. - which I am shocked have been allowed to be made in such volumes and hysterical tones - mean for me you are not someone that I will spend time on.

Frankly, I do not give a single fuck about what you want or demand - do one.

Aww, did the nasty man waffle on too much..?

 

[BlueHammer85]

Just imagine a scenario where remain had won in 2016 and for the next three years MPs in parliment had done all they could to overturn the result and get us to leave. Forcing the PM to leave against his will, against the will of the people. Unthinkable isn't it. I wonder how the self righteous remainers would view that scenario? Because that is how 17.4m people feel now.

It’s the leavers that have cocked up Brexit.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Just imagine a scenario where remain had won in 2016 and for the next three years MPs in parliment had done all they could to overturn the result and get us to leave. Forcing the PM to leave against his will, against the will of the people. Unthinkable isn't it. I wonder how the self righteous remainers would view that scenario? Because that is how 17.4m people feel now.

So honestly, if the Remain campaign had run a similar campaign to Leave, had been involved in criminal activity, had broken campaign guidelines so blatantly, had lied through their teeth, had dodgy funding covered up, had links to foreign governments trying to corrupt the result, and won the referendum as a result. I would want that referendum quashed and rerun. How on earth could I respect it. That is how a great many people feel.

 

[stonerblue]

News at 10 (that are usually ok) were at it last night referring to what has happened over the last couple of days as chaos in the house. Some of the behaviours have been poor, but the main thrust of parliament vs the government has been far from chaos. Its been logical and thought through.

On a related subject, a sample of headlines from the fail this morning:

'Corbyn steals your vote'
'Corbyn chickens out of letting public go to the polls'
'its time this squabbling, showboating, grotesque circus got out of town for good'
'Labour in turmoil over Brexit'

I don't understand why the Tory party actually fund campaigns when they have large sections of the UK media doing the job for them. The nation has had poison poured into its collective ear for years and we have no chance of reconciling our divisions while this is allowed to go on unabated. Is this a particularly unique UK problem or does similar political bias exist in other European countries. What is it like in Ireland for example?

A quick look at todays headlines shows you that some papers are already shitting it over a GE and Corbyn. Although to be fair to the Times, they've been at it all week.

 

[hgblue]

It’s the leavers that have cocked up Brexit.

Lol, the silent majority are watching and waiting, the verdict will come on election day, I can tell you there are some mightily pissed off people out there and they don't blame Boris Johnson.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

The Lords have agreed to pass the bill by friday so it can go to the house on Monday and should become law, Johnson will then do a GE vote again and it will go through before parliament shuts back down.

Oct 15th election will probably happen

Yes, it looks like their has been an agreement with Labour to get the Lords to pass the bill,without filibuster, in return
for an agreement for a GE on this date. Unless Corbyn changes his mind again.

 

[Mon Autre]

Lol, the silent majority are watching and waiting, the verdict will come on election day, I can tell you there are some mightily pissed off people out there and they don't blame Boris Johnson.

Are they the same people that think leaving on 31st October with No Deal equates to a clean break and "just getting on with it"?

 

[FlemishDuck]

Leavers making complaints about "democracy" better watch out how much of their democracy is being eroded even with the help of the Tory's. You had Jacob Rees mogg complaining about "irregularity's" a few days back but i swear it seems to be the new trend to test the waters of any not-so-well defined procedure or custom nowadays to the point of "challenging democratic foundations". I do wonder if there isn't any more sinister motivation behind that.

Le us consider some of the irregularity's for when it comes to having well defined procedures and democratic institutions? So first of all a binding non-binding referedum is called withought much detail on the leave option when really the use of such referendums is rather unconventional and murky in legal terms. So a few days ago even there was a battle in parliament in regards to "legitimacy" as the conservatives were reffering to the legitimacy given for Brexit trough the non-binding binding referendum whereas the opposition was afcourse refering to the democratc legitimacy given to them trough votes in a parliamnetary democracy. Thats a big and scary socio-political issue imho: who of the 2 is the highest authority now???

Lets besides that look at how the Tory's have been using various procedure's for tactical reasons within parliament like May's "running down the clock" and Boris his proroguing. Not illegal, but easy to argue as being against the spirit of parliamentary democracy. Actually a perfect way to graduatly kill a parliamentary democracy is by having it's politicians seeking all sorts of legal backgates within the limited definitions of procedure's to be able to act beyond the intended capabilety for such within democracy and it shows how much it is happening nowadays.

And now voices are saying that the conservatives are going to filibuster the motion agaist a no deal, and Belgian political analyst gather that Johnson still has a chance as long as he's willing to manipulate and abuse the limitations of the system as he has shown to do. If so, i wouldn't be able to tell what British politics actually are but it would hardly seem as very democratic. I think Brits should be weary as to how much it's politicians are erroding it's democratic institutions and procedures under the guise of Brexit.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

It’s the leavers that have cocked up Brexit.

Really lol

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

So honestly, if the Remain campaign had run a similar campaign to Leave, had been involved in criminal activity, had broken campaign guidelines so blatantly, had lied through their teeth, had dodgy funding covered up, had links to foreign governments trying to corrupt the result, and won the referendum as a result. I would want that referendum quashed and rerun. How on earth could I respect it. That is how a great many people feel.

Both sides lied my friend. That is indisputable. Some have very short memories.

I also put it to you that more people will feel betrayed when we stay in the EU. Because that is surely what is going to happen now.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Lol, the silent majority are watching and waiting, the verdict will come on election day, I can tell you there are some mightily pissed off people out there and they don't blame Boris Johnson.

Who do the ‘silent majority’ blame then if not the Tories?

 

[FlemishDuck]

The problem with the referendum at the very start was it's intention right? It was set up as a opportunist political move, not a honest consultation of the public that was well defined and to be binding in the first place. The lack of detail in the question of Brexit is whats arguably creating a load of issue's now, but then it was opportunist to ask te question so vaguely so to have plenty of leeway afterwards as to fill in "what the people wanted"? Brexit was intended as a vehicle of powerplay rather than one for clear and expedient political resolution?

To give credit to the camp that is against no-deal: Parliament using it's representative legitimacy to forbid a no deal isn't nessecarily perpendicular to legitimacy of a binding non binding referendum to have a Brexit, it simply uses parlements legitimacy to more narroly define what form of leaving is possible. To take a more rediculous example to prove the point: "what if some Brexiteers had propposed war with the EU as a means to exit it"? Would it infringe on the democrtic choice of the people trough a binding non binding referendum if parliament had excluded war as a form of Brexit? I think not???