Another new Brexit thread

[aguero93:20]

I think the plan is to watch Johnson ‘die in a ditch’. I’m buying tickets.

 

[FlemishDuck]

Yeah it was called the private finance initiative PFI and guess what we are still paying for that failing piece of genius.

The underlying issue's then are more likely political than really economical. For example even this specific form of PFI exists in 17 country's whereas you are reffering to how you perceive issue's to it's implementation in the UK. Feel free to criticise the politicians that in youre oppinion failed to implement it well, but i think you will need to come with a far stronger argument to talk down the concept when it's used in so many country's.

That said, i dont think PFI describes what i mean either.

 

[hilts]

I post things which are true and opinions based on things which are true. Your constant denials don't make it untrue.

• You assert than McDonnell is a Leninist, not a Marxist.That is your opinion. I am stating the fact, that McDonnell says he is a Marxist. This is not my opinion, it is what he says. That he says it is a fact. It is not untrue.
• He said he wants insurrection - violent uprising. This is a fact. He said it. It is not untrue.
• He described mob violence as the best of his movement. Again a fact.
• He said of the 2008 crash which brought misery to millions for a decade, that this is something he's been waiting for. This is on record. It is a fact.
• He was fired from the GLC for his fiscal irresponsibility

These are not opinions Rascal, these are facts.

The reality is, unless this leopard radically changes its spots (and do they ever?) then we can expect more of this if he's in power. Only then he'll be able to wreak the damage to the capitalist system he is so desperate to destroy. For he is a Marxist, or if you insist, a Lenninist ;-)

He has already said he would increase corp tax even if it brings in less money. You are correct in the assumption he is indeed a dick.

 

[hilts]

Why do you think that Private companies keep hold of businesses like Water / rail / Gas / Electric..... its because they are profitable (if they're not they just hand them back anyway)..... renationalising them won't make them unprofitable.

Are you sure?

 

[TheRemainsOfTheDave]

Anything, anything that brings it to an end. Please .

Mays Deal vs Remain won't provide a result that ends it because the hard line Brexiteers will argue they are one and the same. No Deal vs Remain might if anyone wants to risk it!

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Make 2nd ref binding rather than advisory

Potentially, but I don't know how easy it is to do that.

What would happen if it's compromised?

 

[hilts]

It's a frightening prospect.

If anyone has a parent with a (say) £500,000 house, how long do they think McDonnell it will take before McDonnell drops inheritence tax back down to £300,000 or lower? Kerrching - another £80,000 in tax for his spending spree.

People talk about them only being in for 5 years. How long will it take you to get your £80,000 back? Guess what, you're NEVER getting it back.

People with half million pound houses are not are great concern to me tbh fella. Priorities and all that.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

The underlying issue's then are more likely political than really economical. For example even this specific form of PFI exists in 17 country's whereas you are reffering to how you perceive issue's to it's implementation in the UK. Feel free to criticise the politicians that in youre oppinion failed to implement it well, but i think you will need to come with a far stronger argument to talk down the concept when it's used in so many country's.

That said, i dont think PFI describes what i mean either.

We have a history in this country of the govt choosing the cheapest option when it tries to build anything using private contractors , whether Pfi, or getting the private sector to do it for them

It chooses the cheapest option because of parliamentary scrutiny. If it chose a more expensive albeit more realistic they would be criticised.

However the cheapest option is simply the way to get the work, they know and we know that it will cost more eventually but that’s the silly game we in this country play . However it’s not long before th contractor says sorry when we said it would cost 10 , we meant 20 .

HS2 is just another example of this.

 

[FlemishDuck]

Are you sure?

Sectors like these often evolve into quasi monopoly's or duopoly's with price agreements. All these are things that are not supposed to happen in the free market but then again it does. I can certaintly see a few ex goverment sector's being owned by quasi monopolists and cooperating duopologists in Belgium and the general result is high prices and shitty service giving them plenty of profit because "the customer hardly has any alternative". Especially telecom tends to be evol in that regard around here.

 

[Ban-jani]

We have a history in this country of the govt choosing the cheapest option when it tries to build anything using private contractors , whether Pfi, or getting the private sector to do it for them

It chooses the cheapest option because of parliamentary scrutiny. If it chose a more expensive albeit more realistic they would be criticised.

However the cheapest option is simply the way to get the work, they know and we know that it will cost more eventually but that’s the silly game we in this country play . However it’s not long before th contractor says sorry when we said it would cost 10 , we meant 20 .

HS2 is just another example of this.

It’s how you end up with incidents like Grenfell Tower.

 

[FlemishDuck]

We have a history in this country of the govt choosing the cheapest option when it tries to build anything using private contractors , whether Pfi, or getting the private sector to do it for them

It chooses the cheapest option because of parliamentary scrutiny. If it chose a more expensive albeit more realistic they would be criticised.

However the cheapest option is simply the way to get the work, they know and we know that it will cost more eventually but that’s the silly game we in this country play . However it’s not long before th contractor says sorry when we said it would cost 10 , we meant 20 .

Oh it doesn't work like that in Belgium. I mean, we have the same way to hand out contracts to private bussiness, but the difference is that the private company is payed the sum they are promised once and all the errors they make along the way is for themselves to pay, well, providing they can afcourse but i think goverment takes contractors with assets that could be taken as collateral.

Still, if there is any method where some corrupt politicians will try to get their paws on public money, it's often going to be expenditures of that kind. Works across all leanings to be fair.

Sounds to me the way it's happening i, the UK is "highly corruptable" if goverment actually pays the extra cost, as it defeats the purpose of "avoiding corruption by forcing the cheapest option".

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Oh it doesn't work like that in Belgium. I mean, we have the same way to hand out contracts to private bussiness, but the difference is that the private company is payed the sum they are promised once and all the errors they make along the way is for themselves to pay, well, providing they can afcourse but i think goverment takes contractors with assets that could be taken as collateral.

Sounds to me the way it's happening i, the UK is "highly corruptable" if goverment actually pays the extra cost, as it defeats the prupose of "avoiding corruption by forcing the cheapest option".

It’s every single time here. I doubt we have ever built anything significant on budget , on time or to the specification.

 

[Blumers Bloomers]

The PM and Chancellor runs the country, everyone knows that. Well they did until johnson devalued the position of both with himself and that useless fuck Javid.

What do you fear about the opposition, we as a nation are at our lowest point with this cabinet, and el prsidente johnsons banan republic tactics, anything besides them would be an improvement.

Seeing Thornberry tie herself up in knots last night on QT actually saying she would negotiate a great deal with Brussels and then actively campaign to remain ...that’s enough to frighten anyone, the sheer lunacy of what she was saying?

Corbyn knows it as well else he’d be pushing for a GE

Not saying Boris is the answer for one minute mind. A real sorry state of affairs

 

[FlemishDuck]

It’s every single time here. I doubt we have ever built anything significant on budget , on time or to the specification.

Less so in Belgium, it happens that public expenditure in ifrastructure gets corrupted like say that bridge they want to build in Antwerp, but ive also seen cases where regional construction company's have lost millions by bidding low in a goverment contract and being forced to cough up the rest to get the job done.
As mentioned public expenditure is traditionally an area where corruption can happen but typicly thats not exclusive to a certain ideological bend, still woe to those getting "actually caught", though otoh allegations of such corruption as a tool of political languaghe is common too and open to scrutiny.

there is a Flemish proverb saying "one should not put the cat with the milk" as a way of saying that there are ways to make something more likely to happen, in this case cat drinking youre milk. What it genneraly means for corruption imho is that every easy avenue that exist for it will genneraly be exploited from all side's of the political spectrum and it's more about the issue of having those backdoors within the system.

 

[Ban-jani]

Seeing Thornberry tie herself up in knots last night on QT actually saying she would negotiate a great deal with Brussels and then actively campaign to remain ...that’s enough to frighten anyone, the sheer lunacy of what she was saying?

Corbyn knows it as well else he’d be pushing for a GE

Not saying Boris is the answer for one minute mind. A real sorry state of affairs

No it’s logical.

Labour want to remain but appreciate the public voted to leave. They will negotiate a better deal than the current WA and then will give the people a chance to decide whether they now actually want to leave, whilst Labour will inform them remaining is better.

It’s the fairest way of doing it and will do a lot to bridge the divide in the country.

Thornberry is spot on.

 

[hilts]

Sectors like these often evolve into quasi monopoly's or duopoly's with price agreements. All these are things that are not supposed to happen in the free market but then again it does. I can certaintly see a few ex goverment sector's being owned by quasi monopolists and cooperating duopologists in Belgium and the general result is high prices and shitty service giving them plenty of profit because "the customer hardly has any alternative". Especially telecom tends to be evol in that regard around here.

The problem we have in this country is the perception and reality that private companies will fuck us as consumers and the govt has a long history of fucking up literally everything they touch. So either way we are paying over the odds for a shitty service. The mindset that holds Labour back is that people think they will spend, tax, borrow and we will be left with unproductive services that become a trough that those working in it can take the piss.

They need to somehow persuade middle England that they have some sort of prudence and they can stop themselves from continually throwing money without responsibility at everything.

Now we all now the Tories are a huge fuck up but Labour will embrace more projects that they could fuck up. They needed brexit so people at the end of their tether May just say fuck it give them a go.

Problem is option A maybe be useless but that doesn’t mean option B won’t be, it could even be worse. As per the norm people will just try and see if other people will have to pay for Labours manifesto.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

No it’s logical.

Labour want to remain but appreciate the public voted to leave. They will negotiate a better deal than the current WA and then will give the people a chance to decide whether they now actually want to leave, whilst Labour will inform them remaining is better.

It’s the fairest way of doing it and will do a lot to bridge the divide in the country.

Thornberry is spot on.

You just fancy her . You want to help her with her chub rub

 

[Ban-jani]

You just fancy her . You want to help her with her chub rub

I wouldn’t with yours mate but she’s a good politician.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I just don’t see the point as an individual having to pick the one you think is the least shit. You have one vote, I have one vote. Neither of those votes will decide anything. If you vote for either you are giving them your suppport.You become part of their overall vote, you contribute to their existence and effectively give them legitimacy. Vote for someone else, vote for no one then at least you can say you didn’t contribute to the fuckwittery.

People cannot complain about the state of our politics while contributing to it. If everyone said fuck this shit it may make a difference but they won’t but as an individual you can at least say you tried.

If, I have to vote for a fuckwit, then, unlike many who voted for this shitshow, I will admit to a share of responsibility for empowering said fuckwit.

I can't think of a better use of the vote which people fought for, than stopping cunts like Reece Mogg & Farage, so I'll do it. They would have been on the other side, in the war. Boris would be in Switzerland.

 

[FlemishDuck]

The problem we have in this country is the perception and reality that private companies will fuck us as consumers

Hey, i'm a veblenist, allow me to present a fact elloquently worded by this historical economic philosopher:

It is always sound business to take any obtainable net gain, at any cost and at any risk to the rest of the community. - Thorstein Veblen

To understand this quote well one must take note fo the distinction "any obtainable net gain", with other words "as long as they can get away with it" it is in the inherit interrest of private company's to take a profit against the interrests of the rest of the community. Faced with this fact, the natural perception of the public towards private bussines SHOULD be one of wearyness and suspicioun, besides that the quote easily proves itself by contemporary example's as say Vokswagen messing with their emmision counters. So it's not a problem that people have this perception, it's a very healthy thing actually.

the govt has a long history of fucking up literally everything they touch.

Most social democracy's succesfully maintain a number of sectors most notably education and healthcare while indeed there has been a trend to privatise previously held national service's like say mail, eletricity, telecom, transport (rail/bus) and others. Atleast in Belgium a number of nationalisations led to quasi monopoly's/duopoly's and price agreements against the interrest of the public, for what regards publicly run service's they run moderatly well in Belgium but there certaintly is some waste.

It's sometimes hard to tell what you'd prefer if you have to choose between 2 likely "less idealistic than proposed sollutions" like privitisation and nationalisation. I mean the proponents of hardcore privitisation are full of shit too imho if they are going to act as if private bussiness doesn't have an inheritly predatory interrest in relation to the rest of society that must be taken in consideration. In betwee having a somewhat "ineffient" goverment service and a predatory private service i'm not nessecarily going to idealise the latter.


The real problem eitherway is that the economic status quo is heavily "fortified". Imho there is plenty of room for needed change, but it's hard to have a lot of change in a short time withought risking unacceptable social issue's which arn't worth it for a "moderate". I think economic change is deffinatly needed, but i'm not going to propose a radical way to go about it

Edit: damn you Hilts for liking this reply, now i wonder why im even explaining the potential predatory nature of capitalism to a national of that country which was behind the Opium wars, as if you didn't know Britania pretty much perfected predatory capitalism.