I agree with the principle that people should vote and decide and decisions should then be honoured.Its a fair point, personally I think Scotland should be independent, if that is the democratic outcome I have no issue with it, as I have no issue with leaving the EU because of the democratic outcome.
The problem is though is its an emotive issue and as Brexit has become an issue based on emotion, so would Scotland leaving. The fact we have been in union with Scotland, share a currency, a monarch, a language, even drive on the same side of the road, for over 300 years means we are far more intertwined with Scotland than we are with the EU on an emotions basis.
That emotion is difficult to categorise because we are so intertwined, I would have thought the overwhelming majority have Scottish friends, a lot will have Scottish relatives, far more so than we have EU friends and relatives. That reason alone may be an underlying reason for differing opinions on either subject.
You could even turn it round and say, I am a believer Greater Manchester should leave England and be a state in its own right. How many people who support leaving the EU would support that? Would there be people who voted to remain in the EU who would vote for Greater Manchester to leave England? It would become an emotive issue.
Or maybe they could just be a mix of A, B and C
I have more of a clue than you. But then so does practically everyone else on the forum.
Your analysis of the Scotland independence issue is absolutely laughable. If it was anyone else I’d explain why but for you I would be wasting my time.
Ha ha - good oneHe said Eire....thats not gonna help his plan
I was referring to mcfc’s assertion that Parliament taking no deal off the table had scuppered the chances of reaching a deal. Whilst I agree that the intention of Parliament was to frustrate Brexit, I actually believe the EU are now at the stage where they just want this done and would be willing to compromise. I don’t think they’d be willing to sacrifice Ireland in the process, but they would be willing to remove the backstop if a sensible alternative can be found.The EU have always wanted a deal. That's why they expended time, effort and money negotiating a deal with the UKs negotiators under May.
Scouser has an epiphany about losing money in Brexit shocker....
I was referring to mcfc’s assertion that Parliament taking no deal off the table had scuppered the chances of reaching a deal. Whilst I agree that the intention of Parliament was to frustrate Brexit, I actually believe the EU are now at the stage where they just want this done and would be willing to compromise. I don’t think they’d be willing to sacrifice Ireland in the process, but they would be willing to remove the backstop if a sensible alternative can be found.
Don't say I didn't tell you....this is why Johnson doesn't want his 'plan' made public
I agree with you about the dubious motives of the ERG types for wanting brexit. There is just no need for them to push for this as part of the 'deal' though, as once we are out they can do what they want to workers rights. This is a shabby aspect of brexit, but to suggest it's part of the negotiations is likely bollocks.I'd hope this isn't true, but fear it is.
One thing I am sure of, is that the people behind Brexit have a sinister reason for engineering it, which is not, as they claim, just about pesky Europeans doing stuff to us, it is about pesky European rules which stop them from doing stuff to us.
Unfortunately, many who support it, don't care about the motives of the people they are supporting & are just blindly supporting 'IT' like a religion.
I think that their compromise will be - remove the 'unfettered' nature of the backstop - although the handling will be important as they and Varadkar cannot be seen to have 'moved' - then after the transition period either agree quietly that the alternative arrangements are satisfactory of retain N.I. in a backstop until some pre-determined criteria is achievedI was referring to mcfc’s assertion that Parliament taking no deal off the table had scuppered the chances of reaching a deal. Whilst I agree that the intention of Parliament was to frustrate Brexit, I actually believe the EU are now at the stage where they just want this done and would be willing to compromise. I don’t think they’d be willing to sacrifice Ireland in the process, but they would be willing to remove the backstop if a sensible alternative can be found.
I agree with you about the dubious motives of the ERG types for wanting brexit. There is just no need for them to push for this as part of the 'deal' though, as once we are out they can do what they want to workers rights. This is a shabby aspect of brexit, but to suggest it's part of the negotiations is likely bollocks.
How can people not understand?They have always been willing to remove the 'backstop' that's why it has the name 'backstop' because it is purely there to try & avoid fucking up the Irish border, if no alternative can be negotiated.
If an alternative can be negotiated, there is no & never has been a need for the backstop.
How can people not understand?
That is gross naivety - the backstop, if unfettered, gives the EU control over the UK's setting of all key economic and trading policies for what ever period of time they so chose
Anyone who thinks the EU will force Varadkar or any Irish Leader into establishing a hard border that contravenes the GFA is deluded.
As empty a threat as you will hear in this debate.
yes please..much more trustworthy than westminster, more democratic what could be better?How can people not understand?
That is gross naivety - the backstop, if unfettered, gives the EU control over the UK's setting of all key economic and trading policies for what ever period of time they so chose
I think that their compromise will be - remove the 'unfettered' nature of the backstop - although the handling will be important as they and Varadkar cannot be seen to have 'moved' - then after the transition period either agree quietly that the alternative arrangements are satisfactory of retain N.I. in a backstop until some pre-determined criteria is achieved
Retaining NI in a NI backstop was initially proposed by the EU in 2017 and is their preferred option. Dublin would also be happy. Not happy will be the DUP and Unionists in NI. For any solution to work it will need Unionist and Nationalist consent. Dual consent is at the heart of the GFA.
again, i would also state that it is the DUP primarily who do not want it....there are large numbers of Unionists who are happy/OK with it. Not all Unionists vote DUP.
I think it could be good for NI in particular
Noted.