You are wholly inconsistent and simply incoherently rambling - and given the first line you are now also twisting and deceiving even yourself - but likely no one else
My comments have consistently been that we must not sign-up to the backstop as currently set out in the WA
It is the only backstop that currently exists - the WA is the document that the EU says it will nor reopen (have you been away for a long time?)
I have also said several times that an 'elegant' solution is to remove the backstop and replace it with an agreement to conclude border arrangements during the transition period - and, in the event that arrangements could not be agreed during the transition period, then the Irish Sea option is adopted.
For this to happen though the EU must reverse its position that it will not reopen the WA - and it is not going to want to do that. Therefore the pressure brought about by the risk of a no-deal outcome is important to persuading them to.
and No - you have not been saying what you suggest in this post - you are fabricating here. What you said that started this exchange was:
and in response to
@blueinsa expressing something similar to my views - i.e. changing the existing WA, you said:
So yes - your posts leading up to this exchange was you talking about the UK signing up to May's deal, confirmed by:
May's deal has the backstop as is - not any Irish Sea option.
So you are indeed the one living in an alternate reality because there is nothing being offered by the EU at this moment other than the backstop set out in the existing WA and therefore:
a) if we were ever be stupid enough to sign the existing WA, then
b) the agreement on the border will most certainly not be achieved, therefore
c) the backstop will be invoked leading to
d) the UK not being able to control its exit
So - for those hard of hearing at the back - The existing WA must not be agreed/signed by the UK, unless and until the backstop is either removed or effectively fettered
Hopefully you can find your way back to the real world - for those of us already in this world and not too pig-headed to refuse to listen too basic stuff - this is all very fucking obvious
There's been a lot written in various threads in this sub forum since last night's events.
I'll try to put my thoughts on several of the points made in here in replying to you
@mcfc1632, as I do feel you cover the crux of the issue here.
From a UK (leave) perspective I don't see anything wrong in your approach.
I've highlighted a few lines above.
It is not a bad baseline for a compromise and where you and I differ is mainly in where our mistrust lies.
You don't trust the EU and say they would not negotiate a suitable deal once you are locked into a backstop.
I would under no circumstances, trust your present government or the one under May which depended on the DUP to take the real considerations of a border community into account, despite it being the DUP's constituents.
The reality from my perspective of the position of the EU and the Irish government is that, there is indeed a possibility of compromise on the May deal.
However having originally negotiated a deal that was somewhat closer to your vision of compromise above, The DUP holding sway in Westminster forced the change which includes the present backstop. They have their own reasons for their objections but they do seem to be mainly out of kilter with their constituents. The business and farming communities that they should be representing.
The crux of the present situation from the EU is that the No Deal threat that you feel is the key to getting them to negotiate is in fact the sticking point at the moment in getting any meaningful work done on a solution.
We say show us something concrete that will work and will get through your parliament and we will listen. Take the No Deal threat away and get serious.
Currently it's seems to be the only thing your government is serious about because it doesn't involve them having to find a solution.
There are far more sinister things afoot in UK politics.
The reality is that everyone can see where your government have gone with this over the last three years and it is evident that there is no desire from cabinet to find a real solution.
So without this real sign of intent, why would any Irish government or any Northern Irish citizen agree to take a punt on the Tories coming up with the goods some time in the future. History is not on there side in that one, I'm afraid.
Getting back to your solution, as I said it's a very good baseline. It's something that could work and I would have every confidence that the EU and Ireland would be open to negotiations, but not under present circumstances.
From previous exchanges in here I know you feel the same, in that the handling of this all along by your own government has been a huge part of the problem in negotiations
It hasn't got any better. There is no trust in this country, nor the EU I would guess. There is no trust currently in their own party, in your parliament and in the majority of the UK citizenship, and your head of state I would wager that the current cabinet are to be trusted.
Whether or not you should have had a referendum has also been discussed to death in here. I've often made the point from our perspective in Ireland that you put the cart before the horse.
Having a better understanding, of how your Parliamentary Democracy actually works, mainly garnered by being an avid student of this sub-forum (Thanks to all the well informed tutorials that have been posted), I am slightly of the opinion that a binary referendum on such a matter that is not clearly cut down left-right political lines, was always doomed to failure.
Historically in Britain GEs are split along an electorate that is either left or right with variances of middle ground, but basically you are left with a Labour-Tory choice.
Apart from what the motives to call the referendum in the first place were, you did not get a result that was clearly split along these traditional lines.
This left you with a problem in parliament where there was no clear focused view of the result in either the left or the right.
Both the Tories and labour are torn apart on it. You cannot get consensus in each party let alone parliament.
It means that your parliamentary democracy will most likely remain in turmoil until you have another GE that has a clear mandate for a clear definition of what the choice of options are. Another referendum is fraught with the same dangers. It has to be on specific outcomes.
Revoke? as sensible as it seems to some, I think it would cause your society more problems. You have to leave with a deal in my opinion.
Leave it to parliament? well parliament is sovereign after all. But an election manifesto would have to have specifics in it indicating how Brexit would be handled.
I've expressed my views above on the lack of trust with the Tory government but I don't want my view just to sound like Tory Bashing.
It really doesn't help mend the rift in the UK and influence anyone who may have voted to leave when the leader of the opposition sends out ambiguous messages such as he would negotiate a deal, put it to the people in a referendum and vote against it.
That was very long. It's not a rant. Just trying to put various ideas together in reply to many who have posted interesting food for thought.
