Another new Brexit thread

[smudgedj]

Who then takes over?

We could have a ‘Government of National Unity’ led by hardcore Remainers

Embrace the chaos

 

[blueinsa]

Nothing. Bo Jo could go to the EU tomorrow and ask for the extension and if it is granted could come back and we have the GE. Easy. Will he do it? No. Is it the ‘fear of defeat’?

Fear of defeat in what?

You think the EU will say no?

Fuck I hope so.

 

[blueinsa]

https://www.health.org.uk/news-and-...rnment-announcement-of-additional-nhs-funding

'A funding increase of £20.5 billion per year to NHS England’s budget by 2023/24 is around 3.4%. This will help stem further decline in the health service, but it’s simply not enough to address the fundamental challenges facing the NHS, or fund essential improvements to services that are flagging.’

‘Increases of at least 4% a year are the minimum needed to tackle the backlog of financial problems from eight years of austerity. Increases of just 3.4% a year mean longer waits for treatment, ongoing staff shortages, deterioration of NHS buildings and equipment, and little progress to address cancer care. Tackling the huge disparity in access to mental health care will have to be an aspiration, rather than reality for another five years.’


The last 8 years of austerity have had an effect on the NHS as described by the expert above from the health Foundation, it's simply fact that the NHS is declining.

How much did labour pledge to spend in 2015 because im certain i read the other day that the Tories have spent far more since?

Genuine question?

 

[blueinsa]

We could have a ‘Government of National Unity’ led by hardcore Remainers

Embrace the chaos

Ken Clarke as PM and Soubry as Remain secretary.

 

[Hesperus]

It was 28 nations agreeing with one partner, though with two small regions disagreeing with certain aspects that made the extensive delays. One to one trade negotiations makes the negotiations much easier. On average trade deals take 2-3 years to conclude.

Even 2-3 years would have a significant effect on our GDP though. I don’t expect the EU deal (who are our most important trading partner) to take 2-3 years under a no deal brexit.

 

[hgblue]

Ken Clarke as PM and Soubry as Remain secretary.

Please God, make it so ;)

 

[Chippy_boy]

it's simply fact that the NHS is declining.

So you have changed your tune and not "near total destruction" then.

Thanks for clearing that up, although your lack admission of any error is disappointing.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

So you have changed your tune and not "near total destruction" then.

Thanks for clearing that up, although your lack admission of any error is disappointing.

Yeah I perhaps was over the top, I admit my error

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

How much did labour pledge to spend in 2015 because im certain i read the other day that the Tories have spent far more since?

Genuine question?

I don't know mate, if that's the case then they need to pull their finger out as well

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

If you vote in your by-election tomorrow and your candidate wins but the losers all say fuck that, we want someone else and your man isnt sitting in Westminster would you be ok with that?

Labour wins the next GE but everyone else says fuck that, Corbyn is what too dangerous and we refuse to accept him or a Labour government. You ok with that?

Im not interested in how the ref should have been run or the question asked etc because its all after the fact and all because you lost the vote, that is 100% clear. Everyone knew the rules of the vote and the question asked and had you won not a peep would have been heard.

The only way out of this madness as you put it is to respect the result and leave. By all means rejoin later if its shit but if you think you can ride roughshod over a vote that 17.4 million voted for and won you are pissed and certainly not in a position to ask me what form of democracy i am interested in.

I don't think that is what ROCKET 80 is insinuating at all.
'Britain is a parliamentary democracy and it is trying to enact a result via direct democracy and that result means different things to different people. A parliamentary democracy carrying out the wish of a direct democratic result knowing it's bad for the country and it's people is insane and completely at odds with it's role is it not?'
That is the point he is asking and I happen to think he is correct.
That's not to say that I believe that the result of the referendum should not be enacted. You chose to have one. You chose to leave, over here that would mean you leave.
That's not what would have been presented to us though.
It is merely pointing out that your system does not cater for a mixture of the two different forms of democracy. It is ultimately why your parliament is a mess and incidentally, would suggest that everyone didn't in fact know what they were voting for.

Quite apart from the workings of the EU which your own politicians don't seem to understand, most of the electorate seem to have a very limited understanding of how your own democracy works.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

We could have a ‘Government of National Unity’ led by hardcore Remainers

Embrace the chaos[/QUOTE

Was there ever a more ridiculous title than 'Government of national unity,' ie; one containing 100%
of those who lost the referendum?
We're now living in some sort of Twilight Zone, where losers of referendums, (SNP anyone?) get to call the shots.
Losing is the new winning.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Yeah I perhaps was over the top, I admit my error

Well if that's a genuine statement my respect to you for saying so.

FWIW mate, you will find I am no defender of the NHS, so it seems somewhat at odds with me quoting you about how well its doing. It's obviously under enormous strain, but at the same time, it is true that spending has increased a lot over the last 10 years no matter under which government. I am sure it will continue to increase under the next government as well, because there is no appetite from any party, nor the public, to scrap the NHS. The only debates are about degree of extra spending and degree of privatisation (which let's be honest is at a low level. According to the BBC in 2013/14 £6.3bn of the £113bn spend went to privatised businesses, so around 94% of the NHS is not "privatised".)

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

The last three years of politcal and constitutional turmoil has been the result of many things but ignoring the result of the referendum was not one of them. Trying to promote 52% as ‘100% will of the people’ has been the most damaging. In a GE the losing side has a voice, it has representation. After the referendum we had no voice. Both main parties signed up for it even though the process to effect Brexit was unclear. There was no accommodation made to the 48% who voted against. And that is where it went wrong. Brexiteers didn’t seek the 48% consent to the Brexit path that was chosen. Hubris is what did for Brexit. ‘You lost. Get over it’ was the mantra and 48% decided they wouldn’t ‘get over it’.

I've tried to make a similar point, but found it hard to articulate. In an election you generally split along party lines. it's a left-right philosophy, debate.
The referendum did not return a result that indicated anything along those traditional lines. Within your sovereign parliament both left and right were riven on the issue and getting a consensus on what to do was never going to follow a leave result. Stay meant stay. But Leave unfortunately is not as simple as just leave, unless it's without a deal.
That's the only thing your parliament has agreed on so far.

 

[Vic]

Mate, I am sorry you are now just talking bollocks.

The issue I had was about your frankly ludicrous comment "the near destruction of the NHS".

I didn't claim your article was from a socialist publication, I claimed you read socialist publications.

What is your response to the NHS saying far from being "near total destruction", that they are in good shape? This is not messaging from some random third party, it's from the NHS this year. "The NHS Long Term Plan will give hard-working staff the support they need to treat patients quicker and continue to provide a world-class service."

So again, are you going to man up and say, "OK, fair enough, the Tories have not brought about the near destruction of the NHS". Or are you going to stick with your ludicous assertion (and by inference a claim that you know more about the NHS than their own management).

"The NHS Long Term Plan will give hard-working staff the support they need to treat patients quicker and continue to provide a world-class service."

For "hard-working" read so overworked and understaffed that many are quitting.

 

[Vic]

Just to be clear, are you saying that a hard border is inevitable? That there are no "alternative arrangements" that could avoid a hard border, and that therefore getting rid of the backstop would mean breaching the GFA? That there is no solution that does not breach the GFA?

(Other than something that would keep us in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.)

Did I miss a reply?

 

[pudge]

I'm one of the least politically educated/aligned folk there is, unashamedly so, but it doesn't take otherwise to know that the amount of rabble-rousing and shithousery akin to kids in a school canteen when someone drops a plate is disgraceful from adults; let alone elected officials.

How is that carry on always allowed? Genuinely staggers me.

 

[Chippy_boy]

"The NHS Long Term Plan will give hard-working staff the support they need to treat patients quicker and continue to provide a world-class service."

For "hard-working" read so overworked and understaffed that many are quitting.

Oh God not you as well. Karen will be on next.

 

[Hesperus]

Know the issue of prorogued parliament is resolved and the Ben act is approved to stop a no deal. I’m very frustrated that the opposition don’t just call a vote of no confidence and have a GE as soon as possible. If Boris wants to be clever and take us out on a no deal by breaking the law he’ll be destroyed in my opinion, so let him try. The opposition can do no more to stop a no deal. However they can’t just keep delaying and they need to understand a GE is required to move this along. It may not resolve Brexit, but it will lead parliament to the next logical step. The opposition will lose a lot of support if they are seen as just delaying rather than trying to fix this mess.

 

[mcfc1632]

I'm not reading that either.

I replied to someone, mentioning that IF a deal was done on the Irish border, the backstop would imnediately go & that has always been the case. It is purely a backstop.

For the stupid amongst us, that would mean it would not be in the withdrawal agreement, thus its chances of getting through Parliament increased hugely.

I don't think the Govt will get such a deal or want one. I think they want to crash out.

If I am wrong & they do get one it will be May's deal, with a negotiation done on the backstop.

I will accept that as it fulfils the referendum result.

But I want to remain & hope we do.

And will support a campaign to get us back in if we leave.

Hope that clears up whatever the fuck you are going on about.

Not to worry - you are not alone in the manner in which you squirm because you cannot simply say that you were wrong - it is a common trait.

Do not know why? It is not as if you are going to get shot for being wrong.

You were clearly babbling and plainly wrong - you then seek to suggest that you meant something else - which is just silly as your posts demonstrate.

TBF - if your normal tone of posting was not so gratuitously bombastic and insulting - I would not feel the need to point out when you are being bombastic and plainly wrong. As it is you attack everyone all the time and therefore should not be surprised when people point out when you are clearly bullshitting

Anyway - let's move on

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Know the issue of prorogued parliament is resolved and the Ben act is approved to stop a no deal. I’m very frustrated that the opposition don’t just call a vote of no confidence and have a GE as soon as possible. If Boris wants to be clever and take us out on a no deal by breaking the law he’ll be destroyed in my opinion, so let him try. The opposition can do no more to stop a no deal. However they can’t just keep delaying and they need to understand a GE is required to move this along. It may not resolve Brexit, but it will lead parliament to the next logical step. The opposition will lose a lot of support if they are seen as just delaying rather than trying to fix this mess.

They need to get the death of "No Deal" over the line, of course, which everybody knows. But also, Johnson having to go asking for an extension weakens him so all the opposition are going to wait until that happens. He and his advisor pitched themselves as the masters at wargaming, but got outgamed.