Another new Brexit thread

[Chippy_boy]

I’m a remainer and no lefty, but if you believe that these Tories are doing this for the good of the U.K. and all it’s citizens then it is you that is very wrong. They want to create a U.K. that they with their privilege and wealth and those of their class can flourish in nothing more, nothing less. They have been brought up on the playing fields of Eton and retain an empire mentality. They care little for the union that they are risking with their demeanour and behaviours. They care even less about those in the U.K. that are disadvantaged or live in poverty, seeing them as ‘cheap labour’. That Boris is ‘standing up’ for the man in the street vs the establishment is as funny as it is tragic that he is selling that story to some. Johnson is not stupid by any means but he is the most wicked politician we have seen in a long time and if he is allowed to continue down his present trajectory will incite violence.

I disagree with every word above. Every single word. You could not have written a paragraph that was more wrong had you spent hours crafting it. It is a masterpiece of wrong.

 

[M18CTID]

I disagree with the overall assessment that everyone else was/is bad and it’s not just Johnson.

None of them broke the law to suspended Parliament in a national crisis, all of them show respect for the Head of State and haven’t manipulated her, none of them have purposefully tried to force through something that will utterly ruin lives, without a mandate to do so.

You can point to Thatcher enforcing neoliberalism, you can look at the Iraq war and you can even look at austerity under Cameron, or him even calling the Brexit vote. All of them did so with a mandate from the public and the backing of the House.

Johnson is the only one trying to bypass that and that’s something Thatcher would never have done, as she saw the sovereignty of parliament as absolutely paramount to UK democracy.

John Major did it, but it kind of slipped under the radar and nobody took it to court. That doesn't make what Johnson did right of course and I've said all along that I thought he was out of order doing it, but it's funny how Major called him out for it despite doing it himself back in 1997, and arguably doing it for similar reasons, ie: to try and avoid scrutiny which in Major's case was the "Cash for questions" affair. Now it can be reasonably argued that the situation we find ourselves in regarding Brexit is far more serious than that but the point stands that he (Major) was guilty of the same thing that Johnson was and is therefore, IMO at least, the last person in the country who should be pontificating. The rest of us, on the other hand, have every right to call Johnson out for it because none of us have ever prorogued parliament ourselves.

 

[BobKowalski]

I’ve seen it on motorways too advising truck drivers that paperwork may change on the 1st of November. I think with the way it’s playing out we will still be in it by then unless Boris can get something out of Brussels, he doesn’t look like he is doing much negotiating unless it’s with a gun to the EUs head with sort a deal or else.

I think the term for the motorway and other advertising is gaslighting. It’s designed to make you feel Brexit is inevitable and is coming. Like Johnson’s refusal to extend and insistence that we leave on 31sr Oct no matter what.

There is no longer any pretence at benefits or sunlit uplands. The ad I posted outlined the realities. Brexit is now more an ominous threat that cannot, or rather must not, be stopped. To stop it is ‘traitorous’ and betrays the ‘will of the people’. Johnson’s message last night was simple. Deliver Brexit and you will not be harmed.

 

[Ban-jani]

John Major did it, but it kind of slipped under the radar and nobody took it to court. That doesn't make what Johnson did right of course and I've said all along that I thought he was out of order doing it, but it's funny how Major called him out for it despite doing it himself back in 1997, and arguably doing it for similar reasons, ie: to try and avoid scrutiny which in Major's case was the "Cash for questions" affair. Now it can be reasonably argued that the situation we find ourselves in regarding Brexit is far more serious than that but the point stands that he (Major) was guilty of the same thing that Johnson was and is therefore, IMO at least, the last person in the country who should be pontificating. The rest of us, on the other hand, have every right to call Johnson out for it because none of us have ever prorogued parliament ourselves.

A Tory behaving like a ****, would you believe it.

You’re right of course and thank you for pointing out. I think Johnson’s is worse for obvious reasons.

At least Major didn’t do it during a time when holding parliament was crucial to dealing with a crisis.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I disagree with every word above. Every single word. You could not have written a paragraph that was more wrong had you spent hours crafting it. It is a masterpiece of wrong.

Even the 'Johnson is not stupid ' part?

 

[M18CTID]

Why do you assume people at a Labour conference are resentful of people better off then them? Are all Labour Party attendees poor as church mice? Do you think sticking a couple of extra points on higher rate tax or corporation tax makes attendees saving up for their pot noodles feel better?

Maybe it’s just the Labour Party and it’s members have a different view on what makes a society better and it has nothing to do with ‘resentment’. It’s just a different viewpoint and different values. You can argue the effectiveness of certain policies but the framing that this is all to do with ‘resentment’ smacks of an unwillingness to engage in the debate about the society we want to live in.

I said some of the ideas "seemed to smack of resentment". I'm not saying they definitely do and I'm not saying every Labour member is resentful of those who are better off than them because that would be plain stupid and incorrect, but there are people out there who do.

 

[Ban-jani]

Genuinely, I think you are mistaken about this. There may be a few - a dozen of less would be my guess - for whom it is true, but for the vast majority of Tory MPs it certainly is not the case. Even people like Rees-Mogg, for example, voted FOR the May deal on last reading remember. Of course a BRINO is deeply unappealing for the likes of Rees-Mogg, so you can see why anything that doesn't actually look like Brexit at all, is dismissed by them.

And the "threatening to kill ourselves is not a convincing bluff" argument, is deeply flawed.

First, it assumes that the EU are ambivalent about whether we leave with a deal or not, and this is absolutely untrue. The EU definitely do NOT want us leaving with no deal. They'd rather we stayed of course, but if we must leave then they want it to be with a deal. No deal would be painful for us, but it would be painful for them too, and the threat of it does carry some bargaining power. Or at least it did until the HoC scuppered it.

Second, you only have to look at the evidence of how the EU has responded. You might disagree with the theory, but look at the evidence. With May in charge and no prospect whatsoever of us leaving with no deal, the EU's stance was that the May deal was the only one on offer, that it could not be materially amended in any way, and that that negotiators had gone home. End of discussion. Boris comes on the scene and says we're off by October 31st with or without a deal and unless you give us something better, then we're off without a deal. And what happens? Suddenly the EU are prepared to consider any and all alternative proposals.

Bluff works. It's the only thing that does work in negotiations. You have to have a credible walk-away option. Credible, not just saying it, looking like you mean it. But behind the scenes do we want a deal? Damned right we do.

I disagree with this and I’ve said all a long I hope he gets a deal, for the good of the country.

The EU have simply said “if you want the backstop binning, give us a workable alternative” and so far he’s done absolutely nothing.

They’ve called his bluff, are ready to leave with no deal and are even expecting to.

No deal will hurt them but nobody is going to take a threat of kicking you in the bollocks seriously, if the one kicking is going to lose their foot in the process.

 

[BobKowalski]

Of course not. They are all privileged and should be punished.

And apart from anything, any personal gains who may have made are NECESSARILY at the expense of some other exploited minions. Minions who are far more deserving of the money you've made. Genuinely, that is how some of the idiots on here think, it really is.

Even people like Bob - who you would think is more sensible - has lectured me on how all my gains are brought about by the state infrastructure from which I have benefitted - the roads, schools, electricity supply, what have you. And that I should hand over even more tax with glee. Of course the tax I already pay which covers these costs maybe 10x over, doesn't count.

Hardly lectured. Just pointed out the obvious. Our capacity to flourish as citizens is enabled by the stability of the State and the infrastructure it provides. It also educates and provides healthcare etc. What level of tax you pay into maintaining this is the debate and one which can be had sensibly but this can only be done if people view it rationally rather than emotionally.

 

[M18CTID]

Even the 'Johnson is not stupid ' part?

At the BM meet-up before Kompany's testimonial the other week, one poster had had dealings with Johnson in the past and he said he is actually very intelligent in certain fields. Nucleur physics IIRC. Whether that intelligence stretches to politics and running the country is debatable!

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

When you look at the Labour policies, you do genuinely wonder whether some of them are all well-intentioned but non-sensical. Or whether they are actually motivated by fucking over "the rich", and have nothing to do with seeking improvement.

The private school joke proposals are a case in point. It seems to me that what drives these sorts of idiotic policies is simply resentment of seeing some people doing better than others. Not that many parents of kids in private school are "rich". And after paying the exorbitant fees, many most certainly are not.

Thats fine.... Stop giving Private Schools 'Charitable ' status .... stop giving them 80% discount on Council Tax and apply VAT to school fees (after all they are a business ) ... and let them remain Private... but operate on a level playing field.

 

[BobKowalski]

I said some of the ideas "seemed to smack of resentment". I'm not saying they definitely do and I'm not saying every Labour member is resentful of those who are better off than them because that would be plain stupid and incorrect, but there are people out there who do.

Except ‘resentment’ was the part you chose to highlight. Not a policy you found favour with but the idea that Labour policies to some extent are born out of resentment. Are Tory policies born out of ‘deliberate cruelty’?

 

[M18CTID]

Except ‘resentment’ was the part you chose to highlight. Not a policy you found favour with but the idea that Labour policies to some extent are born out of resentment. Are Tory policies born out of ‘deliberate cruelty’?

Yeah, some of them probably are. I don't have any particular side in this debate by the way - I think they all have their good and bad points. Not so many good points at this moment in time though.

 

[Chippy_boy]

John Major did it, but it kind of slipped under the radar and nobody took it to court. That doesn't make what Johnson did right of course and I've said all along that I thought he was out of order doing it, but it's funny how Major called him out for it despite doing it himself back in 1997, and arguably doing it for similar reasons, ie: to try and avoid scrutiny which in Major's case was the "Cash for questions" affair. Now it can be reasonably argued that the situation we find ourselves in regarding Brexit is far more serious than that but the point stands that he (Major) was guilty of the same thing that Johnson was and is therefore, IMO at least, the last person in the country who should be pontificating. The rest of us, on the other hand, have every right to call Johnson out for it because none of us have ever prorogued parliament ourselves.

Notwithstanding the fact that the incumbent PM prorogues parliament every single year of course, and that in order to bring a Queen's speech - if the Tories wish to do so - then we will have to prorogue it again imminently.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Even the 'Johnson is not stupid ' part?

OK missed that. He's not stupid although his judgements do seem to be a bit daft at times.

 

[blueinsa]

Thats fine.... Stop giving Private Schools 'Charitable ' status .... stop giving them 80% discount on Council Tax and apply VAT to school fees (after all they are a business ) ... and let them remain Private... but operate on a level playing field.

level playing field with who and what?

Is a school providing education and reinvesting income back into facilities, education and grants/bursaries for disadvantaged pupils the same as a steel works or the local bakery?

Is one harming the other?

What level playing field do you want?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I disagree with this and I’ve said all a long I hope he gets a deal, for the good of the country.

The EU have simply said “if you want the backstop binning, give us a workable alternative” and so far he’s done absolutely nothing.

They’ve called his bluff, are ready to leave with no deal and are even expecting to.

No deal will hurt them but nobody is going to take a threat of kicking you in the bollocks seriously, if the one kicking is going to lose their foot in the process.

Not only that.
No Deal will probably hurt Ireland more than Britain initially, but when the only alternative being put forward by Britain is a muddy pool of it will be alright and things will be clearer in the future, then the reality of what that will do up North is probably worse. More uncertainty up there is the last thing we/they need.

No deal is bad but I would imagine it would unify business and agricultural opinion.
I think the ordinary people on the street would have a common goal to focus on. This would be the same North and South and our government know that this stance has backing.

Johnson offers no solution that can be relied on. Once he gets his Brexit, nobody trusts him to follow through on any Northern Ireland policy. That's the long and the short of it.
He's offered absolutely nothing except threats.

 

[BobKowalski]

Genuinely, I think you are mistaken about this. There may be a few - a dozen of less would be my guess - for whom it is true, but for the vast majority of Tory MPs it certainly is not the case. Even people like Rees-Mogg, for example, voted FOR the May deal on last reading remember. Of course a BRINO is deeply unappealing for the likes of Rees-Mogg, so you can see why anything that doesn't actually look like Brexit at all, is dismissed by them.

And the "threatening to kill ourselves is not a convincing bluff" argument, is deeply flawed.

First, it assumes that the EU are ambivalent about whether we leave with a deal or not, and this is absolutely untrue. The EU definitely do NOT want us leaving with no deal. They'd rather we stayed of course, but if we must leave then they want it to be with a deal. No deal would be painful for us, but it would be painful for them too, and the threat of it does carry some bargaining power. Or at least it did until the HoC scuppered it.

Second, you only have to look at the evidence of how the EU has responded. You might disagree with the theory, but look at the evidence. With May in charge and no prospect whatsoever of us leaving with no deal, the EU's stance was that the May deal was the only one on offer, that it could not be materially amended in any way, and that that negotiators had gone home. End of discussion. Boris comes on the scene and says we're off by October 31st with or without a deal and unless you give us something better, then we're off without a deal. And what happens? Suddenly the EU are prepared to consider any and all alternative proposals.

Bluff works. It's the only thing that does work in negotiations. You have to have a credible walk-away option. Credible, not just saying it, looking like you mean it. But behind the scenes do we want a deal? Damned right we do.

The EU was always open to alternative proposals specifically with regard to the backstop. It was literally written into the Withdrawal Agreement. They even wrote a caveat letter to the WA for May saying as such. The EU don’t care how the Single Market integrity is maintained and the peace process is protected as long as it is and if it can be done without a backstop then so much the better. The EU don’t even like our version of the backstop.

But the alternatives have to be credible, legally operable and translate into formal Treaty language. No matter of bluff is making that happen. It either is credible and legal or it isn’t and so far it isn’t. If it was May and Johnson would have had it carved in legal text on the white cliffs of Dover by now.

 

[yerwot?]

I thought it was dripping with the usual anti-Tory clichés to be honest. The most cynically ludicrous being this oft-repeated slur that there's some evil billionaires in the background seeking to damage the UK economy for some kind of convoluted gain. It really is utter nonsense.

I am a Remainer, remember, and no defender of the ERG. But even I can recognise that what drives these people is a desire to see the UK flourish without interference and meddling by the EU. Not to see us fail.

That the hard Brexit "vision" is probably one of UK which has lower taxes, less regulation, smaller government and perhaps less state support for individuals, sits uncomfortably with the lefties. That's probably why they've invented the corrupt billionaires slur. But it is nonsense.

To back your your eulogy of all things tory, could you point me to a single thing they have achieved that was "intended" to benefit the entire population and not just a small but powerful section at the expense of the remainder?
The "corrupt billionaire" tag is nothing more than a list of corrupt billionaires, "slur" is inaccurate. Take your pick, murdoch, rothermere, barclay bros' desmond trump putin , pretty strong midfield , everyone of them proven liars ( on many occasions, but in tory-land they aren't really liars, just "business men" where "truth" and white-collar crime is "the real world", exploitation is the m.o. and anyone who disagrees is a bleedin' heart socialist who never did a day's work in their lives #dailyhatemail, ffs. At it's very core the tory party is "rule by the rich, for the rich" the difference between the pre-thatcher party and the post-thatcher gang is the iron grip that now exists on the media by the far-right Corrupt billionaires, where accountability no longer exists; exemplified by their long-standing crusade on Europe, lie upon blatant lie, unchallenged criminal behaviour spun shamelessly to con the public, the use of racially motivated banner headlines, the poisonous diatribes seeking to vilify anyone that disagrees with their ruthless attacks on the less well-off as "shysters, parasites and spongers living in palaces paid for by "hard-working decent and honest strivers"#dailyhatemail. Take a bow, living proof of how successful that campaign has been, how levels of smug bullshit is reaching new heights.
Privatisation, just another name for stealing from the public, thanks to "tame watch-dogs" that do everything to protect share-holders and nothing to protect consumers, bastards.
An analogy that sums up the situation; if you imagine the public as the "bait-ball" as depicted on The Blue Planet, ravaged by the predators from above, below and all sides, except the predators all have two legs and make sharks look like kittens, make whales look like minnows, and they all worship at the church of unfettered capitalism,
#Corruptionrules,greedisgood,fuckthosewhochoosetobepoor,fuckparliamentfuckbusiness. Not catchy,and but then who needs catchy in a world of lying and corrupt billionaire despot and the bedroom TAX.....and retiring at seventy five with no NHS, no state schools and nowhere to live....at least the obesity epidemic will be curtailed but that is just an unintended consequence and not as claimed by some rwnj on here as deliberate.

 

[Chippy_boy]

level playing field with who and what?

Is a school providing education and reinvesting income back into facilities, education and grants/bursaries for disadvantaged pupils the same as a steel works or the local bakery?

Is one harming the other?

What level playing field do you want?

He's another one whose bought into this "discount for Private Schools" crap. I thought Bob had dreamt up his own world of resentment until a day or so ago, I realise he's got it out of the current Corbyn Book of Resentment. I see ifwecouldjust has been reading and memorising the same tripe.

They want schools taxed as businesses, in order to punish them, to depress them. Schools are not businesses in the normal sense - any idiot can see that. They are not "selling" anything, merely educating our children.

The other lie is that not taxing something is "a gift". If I have £100, and normally £20 would be taken off me, leaving me with my £100 is not "giving" me £20.

 

[blueinsa]

He's another one whose bought into this "discount for Private Schools" crap. I thought Bob had dreamt up his own world of resentment until a day or so ago, I realise he's got it out of the current Corbyn Book of Resentment. I see ifwecouldjust has been reading and memorising the same tripe.

They want schools taxed as businesses, in order to punish them, to depress them. Schools are not businesses in the normal sense - any idiot can see that. They are not "selling" anything, merely educating our children.

The other lie is that not taxing something is "a gift". If I have £100, and normally £20 would be taken off me, leaving me with my £100 is not "giving" me £20.

The real issue is they sadly see it as a way of stopping Conservative PM's is so much Eton etc is seen as a breeding ground so get rid of the breeding ground and we can get rid of our enemy.

Its actually sinister as well as deluded as a policy.