Another new Brexit thread

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BobKowalski said:
And if it depended on majoritarian rule that would be great. The GFA set down that NI runs on consent rule. Both Unionists and Nationalists have to sign off. Neither side can overrule the other. Which is why the DUP having a veto under Johnson’s proposal was a non starter. That and everyone in NI pretty much hating on it.

We need to find a solution that both Unionists and Nationalists can agree on. To date we haven’t found one and no doubt Merkel this morning was pointing this out along with all the other things wrong with our latest wheeze.
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Doesn;t sound like sacking off brexit completely will be well received in NI either, not since many unionists voted in favour of it.
 
BobKowalski said:
Not entirely convinced they will. Most will put party loyalty above everything else. And with a GE looming, the tone of which will be framed round the message below.

It will be an MPs patriotic duty to back Johnson anything else will be treason and we will torch relations with 27 countries for a generation or two.

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I wonder why that's used a picture of Merkel with one arm raised. Curious.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
That's a fair point MB, are you suggesting further devolution of power though?
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Damn straight!

Create an English Assembly/Parliament, and ensure it's based somewhere up north, only having Parliament at Westminster for the gathering of the UK Parliament. Begin to take some of the attention away from the south of England and focus on the other regions.
 
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They definitely know their target audience - ignorant thick fuckers !
 
robbieh said:
Numbers matter as will become obvious when we leave a very large trading block to go it alone.
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Well yes, and if it were to lead to Scotland and NI leaving the UK (don't see it myself), it would basically be because they would have seen the benefits of staying in a larger bloc or union, but hadn't the numbers to influence the smaller domestic union into staying, because the largest bloc in it holds sway.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
I don't disagree with you on that actually.
I've quite often said in here that I don't have a problem with English Nationalism, but you should own it.
Don't let it become xenophobic. Have pride in being English.

However the truth of Nationalism is that it does lean towards separation. The natural course of English nationalism is not only leaving the EU but the break up of the UK only.
Particularly if it's at odds with nationalism in other regions of that union.
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I think it is worth drawing a distinction between nationalism and patriotism.

I am extremely patriotic. I am proud to come from a country from which have come some of the greatest thinkers, scientists, writers and artists the world has ever known. I am proud that when I go to watch City I travel across a street named after the English man that invented the computer. I am proud that the man who invented the hyper text transfer protocol (basically, the technique that allows the internet to exist in its modern form) is a compatriot of mine. I am proud that we as a nation stood up to fascism and bankrupted ourselves to do it, because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the English breakfast (or Scottish, for those north of the border) and the Sunday roast is at least the equal of any meal from any culture in the world. I am proud of our architecture, and the beauty of our landscape. I am proud that we were the first nation to abolish slavery and to police that on the high seas because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the world speaks our language, and plays our games, and that large areas of the planet follow our laws, and have adopted our system of government and democracy, because people from Hull and Stockport and Brighton and Yeovil went and built new societies across the world. And until 2016 I was proud that we were a tolerant nation and were not beset by many of the national insecurities that affected places like the US, Australia and (dare I say it) Ireland. I'm also proud that we are the first and only nation to win the world cups in football rugby and cricket. I have no difficulty with other nations being equally proud of their cultures and heritage - if I came from the land of Yeats and Joyce I'd be proud of them too - but that's what I fee about mine, and I will happily argue the toss with anyone who says otherwise.

I am not in the least nationalistic. I regard nationalism as being exclusionary, and fundamentally xenophobic. It is not I think in itself racist, but it seems to me that it is a short step from nationalism to racism. It is about being better than you rather than being the best we can be. It is about scapegoating others and not taking responsibility for your own problems. It is a poisonous and twisted view that gratifies its adherents not by taking simple pride in the achievements of its own tribe, but by doing so in order to demonstrate its apparent superiority to others.

It's the difference, if you like, between the Wolves fans last Sunday who were genuinely delighted that their team had gone away and beaten the champions of England in their back yard, because that's some achievement, and those who felt better about themselves because having watched their team they then hurled abuse and gestures and made threats of violence towards the fans of the team they had just beaten from behind the safety of a 10 foot high metal fence.
 
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Chris in London said:
I think it is worth drawing a distinction between nationalism and patriotism.

I am extremely patriotic. I am proud to come from a country from which have come some of the greatest thinkers, scientists, writers and artists the world has ever known. I am proud that when I go to watch City I travel across a street named after the English man that invented the computer. I am proud that the man who invented the hyper text transfer protocol (basically, the technique that allows the internet to exist in its modern form) is a compatriot of mine. I am proud that we as a nation stood up to fascism and bankrupted ourselves to do it, because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the English breakfast (or Scottish, for those north of the border) and the Sunday roast is at least the equal of any meal from any culture in the world. I am proud of our architecture, and the beauty of our landscape. I am proud that we were the first nation to abolish slavery and to police that on the high seas because it was the right thing to do. I am proud that the world speaks our language, and plays our games, and that large areas of the planet follow our laws, and have adopted our system of government and democracy, because people from Hull and Stockport and Brighton and Yeovil went and built new societies across the world. And until 2016 I was proud that we were a tolerant nation and were not beset by many of the national insecurities that affected places like the US, Australia and (dare I say it) Ireland. I'm also proud that we are the first and only nation to win the world cups in football rugby and cricket. I have no difficulty with other nations being equally proud of their cultures and heritage - if I came from the land of Yeats and Joyce I'd be proud of them too - but that's what I fee about mine, and I will happily argue the toss with anyone who says otherwise.

I am not in the least nationalistic. I regard nationalism as being exclusionary, and fundamentally xenophobic. It is not I think in itself racist, but it seems to me that it is a short step from nationalism to racism. It is about being better than you rather than being the best we can be. It is about scapegoating others and not taking responsibility for your own problems. It is a poisonous and twisted view that gratifies its adherents not by taking simple pride in the achievements of its own tribe, but by doing so in order to demonstrate its apparent superiority to others.

It's the difference, if you like, between the Wolves fans last Sunday who were genuinely delighted that their team had gone away and beaten the champions of England in their back yard, because that's some achievement, and those who felt better about themselves because having watched their team they then hurled abuse and gestures and made threats of violence towards the fans of the team they had just beaten from behind the safety of a 10 foot high metal fence.
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There's a lot in there to agree with.
It's a good distinction you make between Patriotism and Nationalism. Patriotism may be more along the concept I had in mind.

I suppose when I see Nationalism here I don't see the same sort of negativity towards the wider world that you can encounter with English Nationalism.
I suppose Scottish Nationalism and Irish Nationalism is very much focused on the domestic union and therefore has always been at loggerheads with England as unequal partners in the UK. I suppose this can explain the defensive aggressive nature that you sometimes encounter with English Nationalism. It does extend to the wider world though.

But I see a contradiction between English Nationalists that want out of the EU but want the UK to remain the same.
They seem like conflicting ideas to me. Particularly as their counterparts in other regions of the union have the opposite view.
 
robbieh said:
I know plenty of people who say this sorr of stuff. Leavers everyone of them. But as has said before not all Leavers would come out with such comments.
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Absolutely true but clearly Leave.eu believe that this message resonates otherwise they wouldn't run it.

And we already know how well the leave side are at hitting the sweet spot, otherwise we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
 
George Hannah said:
that's the third time for that tweet on here as well - the outgoing head parasite wants to leave with a few memorable soundbites clearly.
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"parasite".

Nice.
BobKowalski said:
Not entirely convinced they will. Most will put party loyalty above everything else. And with a GE looming, the tone of which will be framed round the message below.

It will be an MPs patriotic duty to back Johnson anything else will be treason and we will torch relations with 27 countries for a generation or two.

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When did George start writing Leave.eu ads?
 
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