Another new Brexit thread

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carlosthejackal said:
Thanks for your reply and being able to give a sensible honest answer . I don’t religiously read every post . Am I right that to join EFTA you also have to be part of the Schengen area ?
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No, although if solving the GFA issue means temporarily advocating Schengen (which i'm not concerned about, as the Four Freedoms speak to my Libertarian mindset) then i'd accept Schengen at least on a temporary basis, so long as it solves the GFA issue.

EFTA members can choose to be a part of Schengen, the Customs Union and/or the EEA, but as a member, neither is a requirement for membership, nor can be contested by other EFTA members. The EFTA itself does not advocate a customs union or political integration. That is something each individual member chooses to decide in regards to it's relationship with other trade blocs, namely the EU. EFTA simply means that all agreements already standing between the EU and EFTA would automatically apply to us, but, as Switzerland have shown, we can renegotiate, whilst as members, which arrangements we'd like to amend or disband.
 
blueparrot said:
And if the whole of the tories plus the DUP plus those 5 labour mps had voted for it we’d have left 6 months ago. Whatever Labour or the Liberals and SNP did.
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But you were fundementally wrong wernt you. Ive seen that argument before on here ie that it was all the DUP and Torries fault that Mays deal didn't go through.

Yet that is so far from the truth it's laughable. The Labour Party overwhelmingly voted against it by a much bigger margin than the Tories. It would seem that Jeremy is so desparate to get into No. 10 he will do anything to try and make the Tories life difficult. Instead of doing what is possibly in the interests of the populace. The whole thing is a joke and they are all equally to blame imo.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
EFTA.

It doesn't matter what options are presented to me. I will continue to advocate what I believe in, even if it's in the minority as you so claim. I refuse to allow people such as yourself to back me into a corner of remaining or no deal, both of which I abhore.

What the nation decides is what the nation decides. I advocate leaving the EU with a deal, and the deal that is as close to my preferred outcome of EFTA membership, or the stipulations that closely resemble such an outcome, will be the one I support.

If no such offer is presented, I will not support either.
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Not a question of backing you into a corner, but if/when it comes to the final analysis the choice will probably come down to a no deal Brexit or remain. If I read you rightly you are saying if those were the options on a confirmatory referendum you won’t vote at all, which is your right.

The exercise of which remainders would view as one leaver fewer.
 
Chris in London said:
Not a question of backing you into a corner, but if/when it comes to the final analysis the choice will probably come down to a no deal Brexit or remain. If I read you rightly you are saying if those were the options on a confirmatory referendum you won’t vote at all, which is your right.

The exercise of which remainders would view as one leaver fewer.
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I'd essentially vote for any option that saw us leave the EU. So sorry to burst your bubble (as it appears that seems to be the remainers endgame, to neutralise as many soft brexit opinions as possible.) but no deal is still preferable to a leaver such as myself, than remaining, on the basis that democracy MUST above all, win out. It is by far my least preferred leave option, but any leave option trumps remaining without a public referendum or GE preceding it.

You want to avoid that? Then join my side, the compromisers, and insist that a deal is done, no matter what concessions or length of time that might take.
 
blueinsa said:
Telling language used by Tusk today I thought and the anger on display from the EU tells me that things are not going exactly as they want.

Always gets tetchy as the deadline approaches.
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Most definitely. No one wants to pick up a 13billion pound deficit that the UK would leave in the advent of a no deal. ROI certainly don't, considering they currently contribute 0.2billion.

Leo Varadka did make me smile the other week when he said in the event of a no deal, negotiations could start again after the settlement agreement had been sorted. Talk about naive lol.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
But you were fundementally wrong wernt you. Ive seen that argument before on here ie that it was all the DUP and Torries fault that Mays deal didn't go through.

Yet that is so far from the truth it's laughable. The Labour Party overwhelmingly voted against it by a much bigger margin than the Tories. It would seem that Jeremy is so desparate to get into No. 10 he will do anything to try and make the Tories life difficult. Instead of doing what is possibly in the interests of the populace. The whole thing is a joke and they are all equally to blame imo.
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Rees-Mogg said it would be 50 years until we saw the benefits. Andrea Leadsom says that people voted knowing they would lose their jobs - you can hardly blame the Leader Of The Opposition for not supporting that particular policy
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
But you were fundementally wrong wernt you. Ive seen that argument before on here ie that it was all the DUP and Torries fault that Mays deal didn't go through.

Yet that is so far from the truth it's laughable. The Labour Party overwhelmingly voted against it by a much bigger margin than the Tories. It would seem that Jeremy is so desparate to get into No. 10 he will do anything to try and make the Tories life difficult. Instead of doing what is possibly in the interests of the populace. The whole thing is a joke and they are all equally to blame imo.
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They aren't the government, if the government had voted for it would have gone through blaming labour is just wrong, Its really very simple, Brexit didnt happen because some tories and their partners in government voted against it its simple adding up.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
I'd essentially vote for any option that saw us leave the EU. So sorry to burst your bubble (as it appears that seems to be the remainers endgame, to neutralise as many soft brexit opinions as possible.) but no deal is still preferable to a leaver such as myself, than remaining, on the basis that democracy MUST above all, win out.

You want to avoid that? Then join my side, the compromisers, and insist that a deal is done, no matter what concessions or length of time that might take.
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13 minutes ago you said

What the nation decides is what the nation decides. I advocate leaving the EU with a deal, and the deal that is as close to my preferred outcome of EFTA membership, or the stipulations that closely resemble such an outcome, will be the one I support.

If no such offer is presented, I will not support either.
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Which you have just completely contradicted by saying “I'd essentially vote for any option that saw us leave the EU.“

Shall we just ignore the first post?
 
Chris in London said:
13 minutes ago you said



Which you have just completely contradicted by saying “I'd essentially vote for any option that saw us leave the EU.“

Shall we just ignore the first post?
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Because you basically tried to imply that i'd abstain and that is not what I said.

I wouldn't support any party that promoted no deal, but not every party does support no deal.

Or have you forgotten that? This is not a simple one option or the other scenario, as much as you'd like to present it as being. And even then, if I was forced to make a choice between my least preferred leave option over remaining, naturally i'd choose leaving, even if I didn't support it.

No contradiction, just you failing to understand my position. I will never, ever support any option that sees us remain, just as I wouldn't support a no deal option, but i'd vote for whatever option that most likely saw us leaving the EU.
 
blueparrot said:
They aren't the government, if the government had voted for it would have gone through blaming labour is just wrong, Its really very simple, Brexit didnt happen because some tories and their partners in government voted against it its simple adding up.
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Don't be silly. Accept your point was wrong and move on. I will leave you to it.
 
Blue Hefner said:
Rees-Mogg said it would be 50 years until we saw the benefits. Andrea Leadsom says that people voted knowing they would lose their jobs - you can hardly blame the Leader Of The Opposition for not supporting that particular policy
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Why did Labour say they would honour the referendum result then?? . They have used Brexit as a political football to try and gain power. It's clear as day.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
I really don’t need your validation mate. I care even less if you think I’m wrong. Strangely, you do not set the parameters of what is correct or not, albeit you act and post as if you do. The post you referred to simply mirrored back to the original poster what he had posted.
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Fair enough.....

But at the start of the day you will really being inconsistent and contradictory - just seemed to be like one of the others had nicked your log in - it was that bad

Anyway - glad to hear you are OK
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Why did Labour say they would honour the referendum result then?? . They have used Brexit as a political football to try and gain power. It's clear as day.
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Perhaps they had different expectations when they initially voted for it but when the reality of the WA came to light and/or the reality of no-deal then they decided against it
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Because you basically tried to imply that i'd abstain and that is not what I said.

I wouldn't support any party that promoted no deal, but not every party does support no deal.

Or have you forgotten that? This is not a simple one option or the other scenario, as much as you'd like to present it as being. And even then, if I was forced to make a choice between my least preferred leave option over remaining, naturally i'd choose leaving, even if I didn't support it.

No contradiction, just you failing to understand my position. I will never, ever support any option that sees us remain, just as I wouldn't support a no deal option, but i'd vote for whatever option that most likely saw us leaving the EU.
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Just for clarity, I asked this

“It’s looking more and more likely that the only options on the table will be remain and no deal, and that’s the battleground on which the election will be fought.

Which are you?”


You replied

“It doesn't matter what options are presented to me. I will continue to advocate what I believe in, even if it's in the minority as you so claim. I refuse to allow people such as yourself to back me into a corner of remaining or no deal, both of which I abhore.

What the nation decides is what the nation decides. I advocate leaving the EU with a deal, and the deal that is as close to my preferred outcome of EFTA membership, or the stipulations that closely resemble such an outcome, will be the one I support.

If no such offer is presented, I will not support either.”

I then said

“Not a question of backing you into a corner, but if/when it comes to the final analysis the choice will probably come down to a no deal Brexit or remain. If I read you rightly you are saying if those were the options on a confirmatory referendum you won’t vote at all, which is your right.

The exercise of which remainders would view as one leaver fewer.”

And you responded

“I'd essentially vote for any option that saw us leave the EU. So sorry to burst your bubble (as it appears that seems to be the remainers endgame, to neutralise as many soft brexit opinions as possible.) but no deal is still preferable to a leaver such as myself, than remaining, on the basis that democracy MUST above all, win out. It is by far my least preferred leave option, but any leave option trumps remaining without a public referendum or GE preceding it. “

I’m not wishing to back you into a corner, or imply anything, I’m just interested to know whether in the final analysis you support no deal or not. Because so far you’ve given two contradictory replies to my original question. On the first occasion, you said you wouldn’t support no deal, on the second occasion you said you would.

Out of interest, which is it?
 
Blue Hefner said:
Perhaps they had different expectations when they initially voted for it but when the reality of the WA came to light and/or the reality of no-deal then they decided against it
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I think after the election with the state of the parties they may have thought they would have got some input into the negotiation and then they would have expected to take some ownership and responsibility for it. As it was the government pandered to the ERG and DUP, to the exclusion of the opposition parties. In which case it was down to the parties involved to deliver. The fact the DUP and ERG bailed is why we are where we are.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
But you were fundementally wrong wernt you. Ive seen that argument before on here ie that it was all the DUP and Torries fault that Mays deal didn't go through.

Yet that is so far from the truth it's laughable. The Labour Party overwhelmingly voted against it by a much bigger margin than the Tories.
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Tories plus DUP equals a Commons majority. It is the reason why they were able to form a Govt. If all Tory and DUP MPs had backed the deal it would have passed. Labour and the rest of the opposition parties could have done nothing about it.

The deal failed because not enough of her own MPs, and her confidence & supply partners, backed her.
 
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