Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

Sorry to interrupt but the Newsnight exchange between Lilley and Benn is poisonous stuff. The comparison between France/Corsica or Italy/Sicily making equivalent concessions to GB/NI is a telling point aagainst those who clain there is no real attempt to get a deal. The accusation is squarely made by Maitliss to Benn that his backbench Act in August was timed to sabotage the very likely possibility of the EU re-opening the backstop legal text.

Please, feel free. The last 6 pages have been the same exchanges over and over again.

 

[Metal Biker]

I don’t know, this is your choice we’re talking about. But if the answer is yes, why wouldn’t you abstain?

Because in a binary question i've been asked to make a choice, one or the other. And one satisfies my main stance; leaving the EU.

 

[hilts]

It’s irrelevant. If people wish to past judgement on the three years to date then they should be free to do so. If the wish to continue to pursue Brexit then they can vote to do so. If they don’t wish to pursue Brexit or feel the process has moved a long way from what was promised then they can vote to bin it.

There comes a point when manically flogging the dead horse ‘in the name of the people’ starts to look unhinged. Or possibly a fetish.

I think remainers, if leave won, would find ‘new facts’ that the dumb as fuck public weren’t aware of at the time of the second vote to demand a third one. If remain won of course then the campaigns would have been run fairly and common sense would have prevailed. We would never need another referendum ever again as although things can change a remain victory would mean nothing really changes ever ever again.

I think the fairest way out of this is only those people named Gina Miller can vote.

 

[yerwot?]

No it doesn’t, it responds to the point i wanted to respond to. Anyone interested in your full reasoning will either have already read it, or will have the opportunity of doing so.[/QUOTE
you're dealing with a poster that famously said "just because i support farage doesn't mean i support farage. And ordered a pint of bitter and when it came said "wtf is that? A pint of bitter. "ffs just because i ordered a pint of bitter doesn't mean i ordered a pint of bitter, jesus christ." That's not true by the way

it was a pint of shandy..

 

[hilts]

There is no mandate for Johnson to be PM but there you go.

Remain is the default setting. Our entire economy is geared to remain. We are a fully integrated EU economy within the EU bloc. People voting it otherwise doesn’t change that reality. To change reality you need a detailed plan to transform the U.K. economy. You need billions and probably a decade give or take a year or two. You also need to get all four countries of our Union on side especially the one that actually shares a border with the EU. And you need to get half the country back on side.

Line up all that and you’re good to go.

There is a mandate for Johnson it’s called our shite political system that people like you keep voting in, also we don’t need all four countries on side that’s just a remainer ruse.

 

[Metal Biker]

you're dealing with a poster that famously said "just because i support farage doesn't mean i support farage. And ordered a pint of bitter and when it came said "wtf is that? A pint of bitter. "ffs just because i ordered a pint of bitter doesn't mean i ordered a pint of bitter, jesus christ." That's not true by the way

it was a pint of shandy..

Speaking of "bitter"...

And I never said anything like what you've claimed here. I said "I support Farage's stance that we should leave the EU, doesn't mean I support Farage himself." Funny what the elderly remember and what they forget, eh. Whatever I said to you to make you freak out like this; worth it! ;)

 

[Chris in London]

EFTA.

It doesn't matter what options are presented to me. I will continue to advocate what I believe in, even if it's in the minority as you so claim. I refuse to allow people such as yourself to back me into a corner of remaining or no deal, both of which I abhore.

What the nation decides is what the nation decides. I advocate leaving the EU with a deal, and the deal that is as close to my preferred outcome of EFTA membership, or the stipulations that closely resemble such an outcome, will be the one I support.

If no such offer is presented, I will not support either.

Because in a binary question i've been asked to make a choice, one or the other. And one satisfies my main stance; leaving the EU.

Glad we’ve sorted that out, then.

 

[Metal Biker]

Glad we’ve sorted that out, then.

Correct, it doesn't matter what the options are (regarding us leaving with a deal or joining EFTA), I will support it if it means us leaving the EU. No mention whatsoever about accepting "no deal" at that stage.

You see, you've completely misunderstood my position right from the off. This is why context matters. Look at the question I was being asked when I responded with saying i'd support joining EFTA as my preferred solution to leaving the EU.

There's nothing there to suggest i'm saying "I want to leave and I don't care how!", especially not when I open with "EFTA". I continue to advocate leaving the EU and joining the EFTA. If the latter is not an option, i'm left with the former, leaving the EU, as my main advocacy.

I won't support, on a moral stance, leaving with no deal, but I won't support remaining either. As someone who wants to leave with a deal, in a binary choice, i'm left with one or the other, the worst of both worlds, and in that scenario, I'd be forced to make a decision, tying in with my initial stance; leaving the EU. It'd be a reluctant choice, but i'd not abstain from making it. Getting it yet?

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

That is cool - not being particularly interested is no bad thing - there are time I wish that I was not

But then those of us that wish to see the UK break free from a trajectory that will surely see it on a continuous downwards spiral need to pick up that slack and ty all the harder to help the entire country - including those that are not really that bothered and those that have been simply unable to understand the reality of the EU's future

You misquoted me lmao. I said my views are not that interesting, not that I'm not interested. Otherwise I wouldn't be following brexit at all

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Sorry to interrupt but the Newsnight exchanges between Boles, Lilley and Benn are poisonous stuff. The comparison between France/Corsica or Italy/Sicily making equivalent concessions to GB/NI is a telling point against those who claim there is no real attempt to get a deal. The accusation is squarely made by Maitliss to Benn that his backbench Act in August was timed to sabotage the very likely possibility of the EU re-opening the backstop legal text.

I get the similarities he was trying to show regarding customs between an island part of your country and the mainland, but You’re a union within a union with one of your constituent countries having border that was disputed for nearly a century. This dispute is resolved by an international
Treaty registered with the United Nations.
Whether you like it or not you won’t find a similar situation elsewhere in the EU. You wouldn’t have the situations he was using as examples arising in the first place.

 

[Chris in London]

Correct, it doesn't matter what the options are (regarding us leaving with a deal or joining EFTA), I will support it if it means us leaving the EU. No mention whatsoever about accepting "no deal" at that stage.

You see, you've completely misunderstood my position right from the off. This is why context matters. Look at the question I was being asked when I responded with saying i'd support joining EFTA as my preferred solution to leaving the EU.

There's nothing there to suggest i'm saying "I want to leave and I don't care how!", especially not when I open with "EFTA". I continue to advocate leaving the EU and joining the EFTA. If the latter is not an option, i'm left with the former, leaving the EU, as my main advocacy.

I won't support, on a moral stance, leaving with no deal, but I won't support remaining either. As someone who wants to leave with a deal, in a binary choice, i'm left with one or the other, the worst of both worlds, and in that scenario, I'd be forced to make a decision, tying in with my initial stance; leaving the EU. It'd be a reluctant choice, but i'd not abstain from making it. Getting it yet?

I’m starting to. You genuinely don’t understand when you’re contradicting yourself even when it’s pointed out to you.

Oh well. Have a think overnight and maybe have another go tomorrow.

Or don’t, whichever.

 

[west didsblue]

I’m starting to. You genuinely don’t understand when you’re contradicting yourself even when it’s pointed out to you.

Oh well. Have a think overnight and maybe have another go tomorrow.

Or don’t, whichever.

I see you’ve had the lecture about context, which means that he can post whatever bullshit he wants and it’s your fault for not understanding the context.

 

[Metal Biker]

I’m starting to. You genuinely don’t understand when you’re contradicting yourself even when it’s pointed out to you.

Oh well. Have a think overnight and maybe have another go tomorrow.

Or don’t, whichever.

Running away? Especially when you quote individual sentences out of context and think it proves your point.
Either that or not quote the entire reply, and responding to that, anyone would think you're trying to manipulate responses so that you can make your arguments hold more weight, becuase without them, your argument falls apart.

You've even had other posters point out to you exactly what i've been saying, and you've refused to believe them.

Persistant, i'll give you that. But as i've said over and over, I support leaving the EU and rejoining the EFTA. I support any method that achieves that end result. I do not advocate or support leaving without a deal. I also do not, even more so, remaining. As I don't support either, I don't endorse either, but if, in a binary choice, those were the only options presented, and since I'm not someone who would abstain from making such a decision, i'd choose the option that satisfied my stance that we leave the EU.

I expect to explain this to you again in the near future.

 

[George Hannah]

I get the similarities he was trying to show regarding customs between an island part of your country and the mainland, but You’re a union within a union with one of your constituent countries having border that was disputed for nearly a century. This dispute is resolved by an international
Treaty registered with the United Nations.
Whether you like it or not you won’t find a similar situation elsewhere in the EU. You wouldn’t have the situations he was using as examples arising in the first place.

I think you'll agree that the Corsicans and the Sicilians have a very definite sense of their separate identity, wholly comparable to that of NI except for the land border. The Belfast Agreement had only two principal parties btw the US ratification element was secondary and the UN simply the vehicle.

 

[Metal Biker]

I see you’ve had the lecture about context, which means that he can post whatever bullshit he wants and it’s your fault for not understanding the context.

Ah my fan club has arrived.

Funny how others can understand it straight from the off though, isn't it, yet you never can.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Running away? Especially when you quote individual sentences out of context and think it proves your point.
Either that or not quote the entire reply, and responding to that, anyone would think you're trying to manipulate responses so that you can make your arguments hold more weight, becuase without them, your argument falls apart.

You've even had other posters point out to you exactly what i've been saying, and you've refused to believe them.

Persistant, i'll give you that. But as i've said over and over, I support leaving the EU and rejoining the EFTA. I support any method that achieves that end result. I do not advocate or support leaving without a deal. I also do not, even more so, remaining. As I don't support either, I don't endorse either, but if, in a binary choice, those were the only options presented, and since I'm not someone who would abstain from making such a decision, i'd choose the option that satisfied my stance that we leave the EU.

I expect to explain this to you again in the near future.

This is why binary referendums are dangerous on complex issues for me, 48% of the vote went with remaining. We all know that the percentage of no deal leavers would be considerably less than that

 

[Metal Biker]

This is why binary referendums are dangerous on complex issues for me, 48% of the vote went with remaining. We all know that the percentage of no deal leavers would be considerably less than that

Seriously, we're not actually discussing binary referendums, mate... ;)

I was given a binary choice by another poster who can't understand the difference between making a choice and endorsing the choice.

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Seriously, we're not discussing binary referendums...

I was given a binary choice by another poster who can't understand the difference between making a choice and endorsing the choice.

This is my point though, leading up to the referendum, the idea was that we'd get a deal that would leave us in a better position than we are currently in with our membership in the European Union.

No deal is essentially a highjacking of that referendum by extremists who don't care or don't understand what damage would be done to the country.

It's like buying a new phone that is hyped up to be brilliant and better than the last generation but when you actually get it, it's demonstrably worse than promised so and the manufacturer falls back on: "Well we produced a phone like we said we would didn't we?"

 

[Metal Biker]

This is my point though, leading up to the referendum, the idea was that we'd get a deal that would leave us in a better position than we are currently in with our membership in the European Union.

No deal is essentially a highjacking of that referendum by extremists who don't care or don't understand what damage would be done to the country.

It's like buying a new phone that is hyped up to be brilliant and better than the last generation but when you actually get it, it's demonstrably worse than promised so and the manufacturer falls back on: "Well we produced a phone like we said we would didn't we?"

True it is. I personally was part of Labour Leave and have long advocated for EFTA membership, even before the Scottish Referendum.

I'm astonished at the ineptitude of Parliament, the party politics, antics of MP's, refusal to find a compromise or a deal. However, I value democracy too highly to dismiss brexit due to their incompetance, nor can I support a 2nd referendum ideally, as there would be nothing to suggest a 3rd or 4th couldn't be held.

The first result wasn't legally binding, btu Parliament promised to enact how we, the electorate, voted. The current Government chose to carry out the result. A General Election is the only way to determine whether the Government still wishes to carry out the result, as they will have been chosen by that same electorate. If we vote in candidates who say they will, we continue with a new Parliament supporting brexit. If we vote in those MP's who advocate revoking A50, it will have been us, the electorate who will have given Parliament that instruction via appointment.

That's the only democratic way I see of clarifying the position.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I think you'll agree that the Corsicans and the Sicilians have a very definite sense of their separate identity, wholly comparable to that of NI except for the land border. The Belfast Agreement had only two principal parties btw the US ratification element was secondary and the UN simply the vehicle.

So you see the examples are different then.
Neither scenario would have to deal with a border down the island.

It is what it is.
What did you make of the Tory minister, didn’t catch his name, making much of the EU stance, saying it would never agree to NI being basically made a conclave left behind.
The irony of that rhetoric passed him by I think.