Another new Brexit thread

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This would be relevant if we weren't told that 'This is a once in a lifetime decision."
Changing the parameters when the result isn't what you wanted is not on.

Oh come on. People can’t change their mind or reevaluate because a PM twice removed said it was ‘a once in a lifetime decision’? Get real. Brexiteers voted down the WA which actually guaranteed leaving the EU yet we can’t ‘change our parameters’? If you can’t engage on peoples concerns over Brexit or work with them to assuage their concerns then you are part of the problem.
 
Oh come on. People can’t change their mind or reevaluate because a PM twice removed said it was ‘a once in a lifetime decision’? Get real. Brexiteers voted down the WA which actually guaranteed leaving the EU yet we can’t ‘change our parameters’? If you can’t engage on peoples concerns over Brexit or work with them to assuage their concerns then you are part of the problem.
With this response, it will be perfectly acceptable to completely ignore any future votes anyone takes exception to.
No thanks.
 
Well, well, well - what a surprise
EU throws Boris Johnson a lifeline over Irish backstop

Europe ready to make vital concession

updated
Bruno Waterfield, Brussels |Francis Elliott, Political Editor | Steven Swinford, Oliver Wright
October 9 2019, 9:00am, The Times
methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2Fa5da3b00-ea0a-11e9-b931-c019e957f02a.jpg

Boris Johnson yesterday after he was rebuffed by Angela Merkel. He apparently sought help to “get the boat off the rocks”STEPHEN CHUNG/ALAMY

The EU is ready to make a major concession on a Brexit deal by providing a mechanism for the Northern Irish assembly to leave a new Irish backstop after a set number of years, The Times has learnt.

Diplomatic sources close to the talks said European governments are prepared to concede a unilateral revocation of the withdrawal treaty by Stormont after a period of time. The date of 2025 has been mooted, as long as both communities agree to it.
Last week’s proposals from the UK contained a controversial measure which the EU said would essentially give the DUP a veto. It is one of the major sticking points to getting a deal. Diplomats cite the Good Friday agreement’s commitment to “parity of esteem” for both the unionist and nationalist communities as the reasoning behind having a “double majority”.

A European source has now told The Times: “A landing zone on consent could be a double majority within Stormont, to leave, not to continue with the arrangements after X years.”Under the UK government proposals Northern Ireland would align itself with the EU’s single market rules but not remain inside the customs union.

In return for giving Stormont a “lock” over the deal in the future, the EU wants the government to accept a customs border in the Irish Sea because it will have a time limit if the people of Northern Ireland agree the arrangements do not benefit them.

“With the consent mechanism there is no real political reason for the UK to have a separate customs border that is distinct from another regulatory border as Northern Ireland can decide,” said the source.

EU negotiators do not accept the government’s logic of having two borders, a regulatory one in Irish Sea and customs one on the island of Ireland, and see the new consent offer, unimaginable just a few months ago, as a potential breakthrough.

The offer is seen as an eleventh hour attempt to find a “landing zone” for a deal before the weekend and a make-or-break” summit for European leaders next week.

Mr Varadkar, who is due to hold talks with Mr Johnson as soon as tomorrow, has said that reaching a new Brexit agreement in time for the forthcoming EU summit would be “very difficult” and noted that the EU would not accept a deal at “any cost”.

“There are some fundamental objectives that haven’t changed for the past three years and we need them guaranteed,” he told RTE news. “I think it is going to be very difficult to secure an agreement by next week, quite frankly.

“Essentially what the United Kingdom has done is repudiate the deal that we negotiated in good faith with prime minister May’s government over two years and sort of put half of that now back on the table and are saying, ‘That’s a concession’. And of course it isn’t really.”

The developments follow an extraordinary day of recriminations yesterday which began with an early morning call during which Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, rebuffed Mr Johnson’s appeal for help to rescue negotiations over his new backstop proposals.

Downing Street sources claimed that Mrs Merkel’s response was a “clarifying moment” which suggested that a deal was “essentially impossible, not just now but ever”. It was claimed that Mr Johnson had appealed to her to help him “get the boat off the rocks” but that she had declined to do so.

A No 10 source said: “Merkel said that if Germany wanted to leave the EU they could do it no problem, but the UK cannot leave without leaving Northern Ireland behind in a customs union and in full alignment for ever.”

Mr Johnson also hosted David Sassoli, president of the European Parliament, in Downing Street yesterday. After the meeting Mr Sassoli said that “no progress” had been made. “Angel Merkel’s opinions must be taken seriously. We are all very worried because there are only a few days left,” he told BBC’s Newsnight. “Because we understand that going out without an agreement leads to having a real problem, if not a real catastrophe.”

Iain Duncan Smith, former Conservative leader, claimed that “given the way they [the EU] have treated Boris Johnson’s offer, which would have got through the Commons, tells me they’re not really interested in an agreement”.

The comments from Downing Street provoked a rebuke from Donald Tusk, president of the European Council, who accused Mr Johnson of playing a “stupid blame game”.

Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, told Les Échos, a French financial paper: “I do not accept this blame game of blaming the eventual failure of the negotiations on the European Union . . . the explanation is in the British camp.”

The Downing Street briefing also added to cabinet unease over suggestions that Mr Johnson was preparing to fight to secure an election mandate for a no-deal exit. He was also challenged over comments linked to Dominic Cummings, his chief adviser, that the Tories would campaign to leave the EU “immediately” without a deal if the talks broke down. In a “fractious” cabinet meeting after Mr Johnson’s call with Mrs Merkel, Julian Smith, the Northern Ireland secretary, said that no-deal would be disastrous for the Union.

Mr Johnson was also pressed on suggestions that Britain could withdraw security co-operation from countries that backed a Brexit delay. Mr Smith raised concerns about the claims and subsequently tweeted: “I am clear that any threat on withdrawing security co-operation with Ireland is unacceptable. This is not in the interest of Northern Ireland or the Union.”

Kit Malthouse, the policing minister, has insisted that there is still a chance of finding a deal. He told BBC Breakfast: “We’re reaching a critical point — if there’s ever a time for jaw-jaw rather than war-war, this is it.”

However, attention is already turning in some European capitals to the length and conditions of a Brexit delay that Mr Johnson will be compelled to seek under the Benn act. While some MPs are hoping for a long delay — potentially until the summer — that will enable a second referendum, at least one influential EU government is considering a much shorter delay to force the issue. Under this scenario the timing would be too short for Mr Johnson to hold a general election but would give EU nations some time to prepare for no-deal.

John Bercow, the Speaker, has called the Benn act the “most logical consequence if a deal isn’t agreed”. He also attacked Brexiteers who have voiced criticism over the legislation and branded it a “surrender bill”. “I thought the Brexiteers were in favour of taking back control of parliament being in the driving seat? Well, they can’t have it both ways,” he told CNN.

France, Belgium, Austria, Spain and the Netherlands are among EU nations growing impatient with British Remain campaigners’ influence over key figures like Mr Tusk.

Yesterday a poll of six European countries found that voters were opposed to offering Britain any extension beyond October 31. In France, 57 per cent of the public rejected any extension, rising to 66 per cent of voters in Germany.

Last night the longest session in parliament’s history ended after the traditional prorogation ceremony. It will return on Monday with a Queen’s Speech to announce the government’s legislative programme.

You mean the EU gets its preferred backstop with a time limit up to 2025 but can only be exited if Sinn Fein and the DUP agree to exit? We have driven a hard bargain :)
 
Varadkar is key, always has been.

No deal kills Ireland, a hard border enforced by the EU the end of his political career.

A deal will be agreed.

Sounds like a high stakes game of brinkmanship. I was speaking to a customer of ours in Ireland last week on the phone and he said plenty of them over there are bricking it if No Deal happens because so much of their trade is with the UK. No Deal is shit for us but it's arguably worse for Ireland.
 
You mean the EU gets its preferred backstop with a time limit up to 2025 but can only be exited if Sinn Fein and the DUP agree to exit? We have driven a hard bargain :)
And on condition there’s an Irish Sea Customs border! Yes, the EU are cracking....by going back to what was offered to May and rejected by her.
 
The NI backstop is back on baby. Not quite sure how the EU’s preferred backstop is a major concession but there you go. Spinners gonna spin I guess

‘EU ready to make a major concession on consent by allowing a double majority in the NI assembly to leave new Irish backstop after (as yet) unspecified number of years’

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...st-chance-to-keep-brexit-deal-alive-9zm5qltvt

Ill have to check the details, but i guess "the best way to counter offers that you can't accept, is to send back concessions that don't mean a thing?"

If Bojo wants to build a narrative that the EU was uncooperative or unwilling to compromise the i guess the EU can try to build the opposite narrative withought making any actual concessions. Afterall this is headlined as offering concessions but i challenge anyone here to explain in detail why the proposed concession would actually constitute a meaningfull concession. I'm sure we will wrap our head easily aroud the legalese offered here.

In fact when it only regards "the impression" of concessions, perhaps the EU think's it would allow Bojo to "save some face" when pushing that proposal to parliament.
 
Sounds like a high stakes game of brinkmanship. I was speaking to a customer of ours in Ireland last week on the phone and he said plenty of them over there are bricking it if No Deal happens because so much of their trade is with the UK. No Deal is shit for us but it's arguably worse for Ireland.

Both sides have to be seen to be tough, to not be backing down and to win.

Lots of tough talk, lots of rhetoric and when a deal is agreed and it will because of what no deal means to everyone they will do their press conferences claiming victory and how they have got everything they wanted.

It's all very predictable to be honest mate.
 
People take exception to every vote we have ever had. You seem to object to the concept of ‘opposition’.

Again can you point to any example where a vote has been ignored and the winner not taken the spoils?
 
Ill have to check the details, but i guess "the best way to counter offers that you can't accept, is to send back concessions that don't mean a thing?"

If Bojo wants to build a narrative that the EU was uncooperative or unwilling to compromise the i guess the EU can try to build the opposite narrative withought making any actual concessions. Afterall this is headlined as offering concessions but i challenge anyone here to explain in detail why the proposed concession would actually constitute a meaningfull concession. I'm sure we will wrap our head easily aroud the legalese offered here.

Pretty much. Also we have a gun at our head. Well Johnson has. He needs something that smacks of a deal. A50 is going to get extended anyway but an extension with everyone coalescing around a ‘deal’ gives everyone hope that phase 1 at least is coming to a conclusion with any extension time being used to put the deal into legal text.
 
Ill have to check the details, but i guess "the best way to counter offers that you can't accept, is to send back concessions that don't mean a thing?"

If Bojo wants to build a narrative that the EU was uncooperative or unwilling to compromise the i guess the EU can try to build the opposite narrative withought making any actual concessions. Afterall this is headlined as offering concessions but i challenge anyone here to explain in detail why the proposed concession would actually constitute a meaningfull concession. I'm sure we will wrap our head easily aroud the legalese offered here.

In fact when it only regards "the impression" of concessions, perhaps the EU think's it would allow Bojo to "save some face" when pushing that proposal to parliament.

Yep, that's what this is. The EU doing their bit to soften Johnson's victim narrative. That's pretty much all that's going on across the board now: a PR battle.
 
People take exception to every vote we have ever had. You seem to object to the concept of ‘opposition’.
They certainly do take exception, but even if they do, whatever it was they took exception to, it was implemented by those who voted for it in greater numbers. Your answer is by taking exception it should be sacked off by the actions of those not liking the result.
I say again, no ta.
 
Again can you point to any example where a vote has been ignored and the winner not taken the spoils?

And therein lies your problem. There are no spoils. We gave up pretending there were any spoils a year or so back.

Also it hasn’t been ignored. It’s all this country has obsessed over for the last three years. You are confusing ‘ignored’ with an inability to process a complex task in an impossible timeframe.

Time to drop the ‘spoilt child not getting all his sweets’ approach. It’s not served your cause well.
 
This would be relevant if we weren't told that 'This is a once in a lifetime decision."
Changing the parameters when the result isn't what you wanted is not on.

Ah that old chestnut.
for one thing, certainly feels like it has been a bloody lifetime!

but honest question, if the 2016 result was the reverse, same margin of swing, you would never advocate being asked on the matter again? even if say one of the many fabricated threars did come true, such as the turkish invasion? no, you wouldnt think it worth re-examining? Of course you would! anyone would.
 
They certainly do take exception, but even if they do, whatever it was they took exception to, it was implemented by those who voted for it in greater numbers. Your answer is by taking exception it should be sacked off by the actions of those not liking the result.
I say again, no ta.

It was Brexiteers and the DUP that killed your Brexit on the 29th March. Not my problem.
 
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