Another new Brexit thread

[Metal Biker]

I cannot agree with this.

The leave side, or large elements of it have hardened.

Politicians and public figures who’ve backed Leave, upon finding out the cake and eat it scenario has gone, are now only advocating no deal.

Not all leavers but a significant proportion.

You had the ERG and Farage advocating free trade agreements and Farage even accidentally backing EFTA on Question Time, to them now saying no Withdrawal Agreement is good enough.

And this is backed up by the Brexit Party being the majority party at the last Euro Elections so millions subscribe to it, despite remain favouring parties combining more votes.

Many leavers and remainers who accepted the result are reading from the same song sheet.

We want this over and done with, to move forward, with the UK no longer a member of the EU. Whether that remains the case, is another debate, but it's the not one we have now and cannot have until we have officially left the EU.

 

[Coatigan]

But what if the people of Scotland "change their minds again" 3 years later, or it's claimed to be, by unionists?

See how that sort of narrative isn't helpful? Decisions must be acted upon at the time of their asking, otherwise we're playing no more than the waiting game until the public opinion is forgotten, or perceived to be forgotten.
YOU may regard remainign as a "return to everyone getting on with their lives", but for those of us who voted to leave, and still demand we leave, it will be seen as the biggest betrayal of democracy and the electorate since the reformation era.

I disagree that it is unhelpful. You have revealed a lot tonight (i say that positively). The point i make with those comparisons is, it is very layered. When i say i believe a second brexit referendum is a must, it isn't some undemocratic attempt to overturn the result, it is an essential part of the process, it Has to be. Otherwise, we could keep going on forever with 'farage/cummings duped the public and got away with it'. Or, 'we got brexit in name only'. it is far far more complex. And should be treated as such.

I, and many i know, Did get on with our lives after indyref, btw. Till brexit.

 

[Coatigan]

If we stay in the EU, Scotland stays in the UK, with neither movement achieving what they wanted.

There's your compromise.

I accept! easy deal..

(insert smiley face emoji)

 

[Ric]

Many leavers and remainers who accepted the result are reading from the same song sheet.

We want this over and done with, to move forward, with the UK no longer a member of the EU. Whether that remains the case, is another debate, but it's the not one we have now and cannot have until we have officially left the EU.

What people on here, or the general public, want is largely irrelevant at the moment (indeed, most polls show a remain majority). It’s what Parliament can accept that matters, and that still seems very much in the balance. And that’s assuming a deal can even be reached with the EU, which isn’t a formality itself yet either. The only thing that seems almost certain is that we can’t/won’t leave the EU by the 31st October.

 

[Metal Biker]

I disagree that it is unhelpful. You have revealed a lot tonight (i say that positively). The point i make with those comparisons is, it is very layered. When i say i believe a second brexit referendum is a must, it isn't some undemocratic attempt to overturn the result, it is an essential part of the process, it Has to be. Otherwise, we could keep going on forever with 'farage/cummings duped the public and got away with it'. Or, 'we got brexit in name only'. it is far far more complex. And should be treated as such.

I, and many i know, Did get on with our lives after indyref, btw. Till brexit.

So long as the second referendum's main purpose is for the electorate to decide what sort of brexit we would accept, then fine. But it absolutely must not contain an option to remain, otherwise it will be seen by many as an attempt to overturn the first result before reaching fruition. I cannot stress that enough.

For me "remain" is dead an buried, but the option and debate to rejoin is fresh and new, and worthy of discussion especially if leaving the EU does not turn out like we hoped.
I accept that many in Scotland did move on after the referendum. Wouldn't it have been glorious for those who voted remain to have done the same? Why were either situations different?

 

[Metal Biker]

I accept! easy deal..

(insert smiley face emoji)

Yeah, didn't think that through ;)

Should have added a 'but', being that you have to kiss Farage to sleep every night, waving a Union Jack to keep him docile.

 

[Rascal]

Watching Roger Scruton, introduced as the pre-eminent right wing Philosopher in the UK talk about Brexit.

I never realised how piss poor British Philosophy actually is, the man is mad. He believes we are ruled by the long head of the dead, the fucking lunatic. A tip for you, don't buy his books they are unintelligible garbage that are probably wrote in crayon as he rocks gently in chair ranting about the threat of Nazi moon bases and fuckwit conspiracy theories about plans for world domination based on the great replacement theory of Renaud Camus.

The fucking crackpot.

Why do leavers look to the likes of him for confirmation they are right, if they just went with the common sense argument instead of invoking all sorts of crackpottery. leave would have won easily. Nut Jobs like Scruton just make me laugh as surely nobody can take him serious.

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

Well you won’t think that but then again you’re hard of thinking.

 

[Metal Biker]

What people on here, or the general public, want is largely irrelevant at the moment (indeed, most polls show a remain majority). It’s what Parliament can accept that matters, and that still seems very much in the balance. And that’s assuming a deal can even be reached with the EU, which isn’t a formality itself yet either. The only thing that seems almost certain is that we can’t/won’t leave the EU by the 31st October.

Absolutely not. There's simply not enough time. I do hope that these murmurs of deals potentially being struck and accepted by BoJo, Varadkar and supported by the EU, would grant a slight extension without any means of fuss and a deal can be concluded.

What matters to me is that we follow through with the (vague) notion of leaving the EU. Once we leave, we can start the discussions on trade. We must stop looking backwards. I've accepted I won't get the "leave" I initially wanted, so as to appease the concerns of remainers. All I ask is that you do the same. COntinue the cause to rejoin, but accept that remain is dead. I know you won't accept this notion, but it is the compromise myself, and I feel many others on the leave side, are asking for.

 

[Metal Biker]

That's not what he meant!

You're too literal at times, and now look, all this blood on the floor...

 

[yerwot?]

Compromise; just the latest in a long list of brexit buzzwords intended to con the public yet again. "DEATH of DEMOCRACY, sob sob", trajectory sob, "will of the people". "if we dont leave there will be angry mobs of brexit vigilantes roaming the streets", "the worst thing in the universe is not leaving sob sob sob", "the country has been demanding brexit for years", rofl. "not allowed an opinion" yada yada , heard it all before and no doubt will again plus the odd flounce "ooh right to tell" interlude. If brexits compromised and only lied half the time....?

 

[Metal Biker]

Compromise; just the latest in a long list of brexit buzzwords intended to con the public yet again. "DEATH of DEMOCRACY, sob sob", trajectory sob, "will of the people". "if we dont leave there will be angry mobs of brexit vigilantes roaming the streets", "the worst thing in the universe is not leaving sob sob sob", "the country has been demanding brexit for years", rofl. "not allowed an opinion" yada yada , heard it all before and no doubt will again plus the odd flounce "ooh right to tell" interlude. If brexits compromised and only lied half the time....?

Too much of the sherry, mate?

Have a night off, eh.

 

[Ric]

Absolutely not. There's simply not enough time. I do hope that these murmurs of deals potentially being struck and accepted by BoJo, Varadkar and supported by the EU, would grant a slight extension without any means of fuss and a deal can be concluded.

What matters to me is that we follow through with the (vague) notion of leaving the EU. Once we leave, we can start the discussions on trade. We must stop looking backwards. I've accepted I won't get the "leave" I initially wanted, so as to appease the concerns of remainers. All I ask is that you do the same. COntinue the cause to rejoin, but accept that remain is dead. I know you won't accept this notion, but it is the compromise myself, and I feel many others on the leave side, are asking for.

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that it’s largely one way when it comes to compromise and reconciliation, but I guess that’s the partisan nature of this debate. It was only the other day that we had some of the most vocal leavers on here gloating and goading in the light of the apparent breakthrough, but never mind. As with virtually all of the political threads, there’s rank hypocrisy on all sides.

 

[Metal Biker]

I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that it’s largely one way when it comes to compromise and reconciliation, but I guess that’s the partisan nature of this debate. It was only the other day that we had some of the most vocal leavers on here gloating and goading in the light of the apparent breakthrough, but never mind. As with virtually all of the political threads, there’s rank hypocrisy on all sides.

You cannot say that remainers on this thread have not been gleefully proclaiming the "death of brexit" in the following months since the summer, either? I've not made any claim that it has been all one way, but at the same time, I am yet to see how a remain conclusion satisfies those of us who wanted to end our membership of the EU, and still haven't.

I also wouldn't call it "gloating", which is emotive language to describe the reaction, IMO, i'd call it more "relief", one shared by those of us who seek a compromise and those of use who would accept a soft brexit, or indeed to see brexit concluded. Some commentnators may have felt that their opinions and predictions have come to fruition in spite of all objections, and may have naturally felt the need to "rub it in", but can you blame them given how vitriolic this thread can be at times?

There is indeed hypocrisy on both sides, and I won't comment on which has been worse than the other. It's an emotive topic. But what has disappointed me, is that there are somewho remain steadfast to their original viewpoint from 2016 with no indication that they're prepared to show some form of compromise on the issue. It makes debate very difficult, especially in the current climate where a possible deal is reported to be succeeding. I'd see it as moving forward, personally. I'm sure you'd be glad to no longer have to moderate the subject threads.

 

[Ric]

You cannot say that remainers on this thread have not been gleefully proclaiming the "death of brexit" in the following months since the summer, either? I've not made any claim that it has been all one way, but at the same time, I am yet to see how a remain conclusion satisfies those of us who wanted to end our membership of the EU, and still haven't.

I also wouldn't call it "gloating", which is emotive language to describe the reaction, IMO, i'd call it more "relief", one shared by those of us who seek a compromise and those of use who would accept a soft brexit, or indeed to see brexit concluded. Some commentnators may have felt that their opinions and predictions have come to fruition in spite of all objections, and may have naturally felt the need to "rub it in", but can you blame them given how vitriolic this thread can be at times?

There is indeed hypocrisy on both sides, and I won't comment on which has been worse than the other. It's an emotive topic. But what has disappointed me, is that there are somewho remain steadfast to their original viewpoint from 2016 with no indication that they're prepared to show some form of compromise on the issue. It makes debate very difficult, especially in the current climate where a possible deal is reported to be succeeding. I'd see it as moving forward, personally. I'm sure you'd be glad to no longer have to moderate the subject threads.

I literally can’t wait to no longer have to moderate this thread. Although sadly the divisions in society already manifest themselves in virtually every other thread in here, so the respite will be temporary I’m sure.

 

[Ban-jani]

Many leavers and remainers who accepted the result are reading from the same song sheet.

We want this over and done with, to move forward, with the UK no longer a member of the EU. Whether that remains the case, is another debate, but it's the not one we have now and cannot have until we have officially left the EU.

I’m not disagreeing with that, I’m disagreeing with what you said about those that voted leave generally compromising better, I don’t think there’s much of a distinction on either side, with the numbers willing to compromise.

The LibDems will get millions of votes, as will the Brexit Party, if we’ve not left by the time of a GE.

Those voting LibDem will be ardent remainers and those voting BXP will be ardent no deal supporters.

 

[Ban-jani]

Thank you for sharing the reason why ;-)

 

[Metal Biker]

I’m not disagreeing with that, I’m disagreeing with what you said about those that voted leave generally compromising better, I don’t think there’s much of a distinction on either side, with the numbers willing to compromise.

The LibDems will get millions of votes, as will the Brexit Party, if we’ve not left by the time of a GE.

Those voting LibDem will be ardent remainers and those voting BXP will be ardent no deal supporters.

Well I wouldn't say that I was advocating the leavers compromised "better", in fairness, just that from what i've seen most remainers (those who still adamantly call themselves remainers at least) have offered no compromises to leave voters, and only offer "just remain" as a solution to solving problems. From my perspective they seem to be more in number, but I could be biased there. ;)

 

[aguerrrroooooooooooo]

Well I wouldn't say that I was advocating the leavers compromised "better", in fairness, just that from what i've seen most remainers (those who still adamantly call themselves remainers at least) have offered no compromises to leave voters, and only offer "just remain" as a solution to solving problems. From my perspective they seem to be more in number, but I could be biased there. ;)

In all honesty whatever compromise leave or remain voters offer each other doesn't mean jack.

We live in a representative democracy which means it's the job of parliament to come together.

 

[Metal Biker]

In all honesty whatever compromise leave or remain voters offer each other doesn't mean jack.

We live in a representative democracy which means it's the job of parliament to come together.

Who are there to represent us and our intentions, or at the very least pretend.

Otherwise we're just voting in Lords to act independently of their voters.