Another new Brexit thread

[Coatigan]

There was no correction.

There was, in the first post you said it wasnt a requirement of being in the EU, which it is.

if you stop for a second insisting on only seeing the world in terms of leavers and remainers, you will see it is very real, and verly likely, and the only thing currently stopping it is our membership of the EU.
It is unbelievably naive to think otherwise.

I honestly wonder where you've been these last 10 years. That was one of the ongoing tory+their media bugbears, bloody EU forcing Human Rights on the UK. Literally every single immigration threat story started off with that.

I wouldn't bother responding to you if i didnt think you didnt have the capacity to think, deapite my sarcasm. This is not a 'fear story' vs brexit, it is a harsh reality that we ignore at our own huge risk. Like all others so far all proving true.

 

[BobKowalski]

I'm gonna go with... "condescending" for this one.

Take it as ‘educational with a dash of condescension’.

 

[SWP's back]

In fairness to @kevin horlocks wand I read the other day that the E27 lead by France have concerns about the U.K. diverging/abandoning EU standards on worker protections and consumer rights and there being a race to the bottom which in turn will make any future FTA more problematic.

Of course I may have misread it too :)

If that had been his point and he’d linked something to it then I’d have not commented.

 

[Coatigan]

Is it realistically going to happen?

No. And around and around and around we go...

Yes. see above

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

In a speech to the DUP annual conference in November 2018 BoJo, with ref to a deal that excluded NI, said:

"If we wanted to do free trade deals, if we wanted to cut tariffs ... if we wanted to vary our regulation then we would have to leave Northern Ireland behind as an economic semi-colony of the EU and we would be damaging the fabric of the union with regulatory checks and even customs controls between Great Britain and NI – on top of those extra regulatory checks down the Irish Sea that are already envisaged in the withdrawal agreement.

Now I have to tell you, no British Conservative government could or should sign up to any such arrangement."

https://t.co/Q3yda24SQF pic.twitter.com/RhffGzTWj8

Awkward....

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

really? Ive not seen that anyway....i would be VERY surprised if that were the case

Think he's referring to this case Alex.
Lost the original immigration case in the NI courts. Won an appeal, but The Home Office won an appeal against an immigration tribunal case that had originally upheld Ms DeSouza's right to declare herself as Irish, without first renouncing British citizenship.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1014/1083271-desouza-citizenship/

 

[BobKowalski]

In a speech to the DUP annual conference in November 2018 BoJo, with ref to a deal that excluded NI, said:

"If we wanted to do free trade deals, if we wanted to cut tariffs ... if we wanted to vary our regulation then we would have to leave Northern Ireland behind as an economic semi-colony of the EU and we would be damaging the fabric of the union with regulatory checks and even customs controls between Great Britain and NI – on top of those extra regulatory checks down the Irish Sea that are already envisaged in the withdrawal agreement.

Now I have to tell you, no British Conservative government could or should sign up to any such arrangement."

https://t.co/Q3yda24SQF pic.twitter.com/RhffGzTWj8

Awkward....

Narrators voice: And then they signed up to such arrangement a year later.

 

[Metal Biker]

There was, in the first post you said it wasnt a requirement of being in the EU, which it is.

if you stop for a second insisting on only seeing the world in terms of leavers and remainers, you will see it is very real, and verly likely, and the only thing currently stopping it is our membership of the EU.
It is unbelievably naive to think otherwise.

I honestly wonder where you've been these last 10 years. That was one of the ongoing tory+their media bugbears, bloody EU forcing Human Rights on the UK. Literally every single immigration threat story started off with that.

I wouldn't bother responding to you if i didnt think you didnt have the capacity to think, deapite my sarcasm. This is not a 'fear story' vs brexit, it is a harsh reality that we ignore at our own huge risk. Like all others so far all proving true.

I said it was a requirement of being in the EU.

If i've mistyped it, then it's a mistype, nothing more.

edit: just checked it. At no point do I say the HRA is not a requirement for EU membership, I state quite clearly that it is. What I said was the EU is not in "control" of it, which it isn't, since the CoE was formed first and the ECHR signed in 1950. The CoE and the EU are not one and the same.

Been a pointless argument, this, because you didn't read it properly.

 

[Metal Biker]

Yes. see above

Then we don't agree, do we. Move on.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

In politics we rarely if ever get what we are promised.

I know this much and that is we have never ignored a vote and i remember pre ref the talk of the EU frustrating a decision, much like the Irish until the point they change their minds and give the correct answer, helped by many MP's in parliament.

Exactly what is afoot right now.

I see what you're saying but not quite the same as the Lisbon Treaty referendum here.
I think a 2nd referendum would kill you over there, but I have to say I see the sense in it, not that it matters too much to me.
You voted to leave. You've made a lot of mistakes but you are arriving at a situation now that you have a deal to accept or not. Now you know what it looks like.
The question really is should a 2nd referendum be on this deal or a no deal, or should remain be mentioned at all.

It's not a new idea.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Grieve and co are over there now i believe asking the EU to do what they need....

And Farage is out digging a ditch in front of Boris's driveway.

 

[Coatigan]

Then we don't agree, do we. Move on.

No. I'm sorry, i'm not letting this go. Societies fucking crumble because shit like this gets taken for granted. You can dismiss all sorts of other things willy nilly, your choice. But not This. It is far more serious than whatever nationalism, economy, trade arguements float about.

I need you to underatand just how likely this is, and be conscious of it. It is in their mandate, with a majority, even a DUP propped one, it happens, once we leave the EU. It's been quietly pushed for over a decade now. There is an outside chance it might not happen, but the likelyhood is far greater that it will, which is the defult position right now (i.e, after Brexit).

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

Apparently the DUP believe it will be 'cheques at the border'



Conservatism has shown its face today ......... and its not nice

 

[Metal Biker]

No. I'm sorry, i'm not letting this go. Societies fucking crumble because shit like this gets taken for granted. You can dismiss all sorts of other things willy nilly, your choice. But not This. It is far more serious than whatever nationalism, economy, trade arguements float about.

I need you to underatand just how likely this is, and be conscious of it. It is in their mandate, with a majority, even a DUP propped one, it happens, once we leave the EU. It's been quietly pushed for over a decade now. There is an outside chance it might not happen, but the likelyhood is far greater that it will, which is the defult position right now (i.e, after Brexit).

You're doing a hell of a job convincing me to your point of view, I must say...

Again, I don't agree or accept the hellish scenario you're attempting to purport will occur, or if it ever did, that the populous, the Lords or the Queen herself would ever endorse it. There are just too many obstacles.

 

[blueinsa]

I see what you're saying but not quite the same as the Lisbon Treaty referendum here.
I think a 2nd referendum would kill you over there, but I have to say I see the sense in it, not that it matters too much to me.
You voted to leave. You've made a lot of mistakes but you are arriving at a situation now that you have a deal to accept or not. Now you know what it looks like.
The question really is should a 2nd referendum be on this deal or a no deal, or should remain be mentioned at all.

It's not a new idea.

Denmark, France, Ireland and us next?

Look by all means have your on democracy but just dont make the mistake of voting against the EU because you will be made to vote again until you give the answer they want.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

You need a super majority. You need to win in NI and Scotland. This was always the case.

And Wales.

Nothing to do with us I know, but I do think for something as important as this, that sort of detail should have been sorted beforehand.
Similar to the consent theory in the GFA, perhaps consent within the four regions of the UK should have been sought first before proceeding.
Well that's not how you do things I guess and you are were you are.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Denmark, France, Ireland and us next?

Look by all means have your on democracy but just dont make the mistake of voting against the EU because you will be made to vote again until you give the answer they want.

I see big problems with a second referendum in Britain, but that's more a lack of preparation from the first, TBH.
It was mentioned and did seem very reasonable beforehand, but you just don't seem geared for referenda and you certainly blundered into the last one without truly considering the implications.
The first one is the one that should have all the stipulations of what kind of majority would carry it, regional consent etc., and what would be the procedures afterwards if a yes vote was carried.

You are where you are and that's probably why, whatever this deal turns out to be, is not going to please a considerable amount of people.

 

[Coatigan]

You're doing a hell of a job convincing me to your point of view, I must say...

Again, I don't agree or accept the hellish scenario you're attempting to purport will occur, or if it ever did, that the populous, the Lords or the Queen herself would ever endorse it. There are just too many obstacles.

There aren't. Forget brexit/remain, don't be naive. I'm not even going to bother with historical significance. Argue it's a price worth paying, heck argue you agree with it, just don't dismiss it lightly as some far flung fear scenario. Be fully aware of it, what it means, and how close it is.

 

[blueinsa]

I see big problems with a second referendum in Britain

Understatement.

Listen this remain parliament would have had it legislated for and called a within a few months of the first one if they thought they would ever get away with calling for one.

The fact they have not and its been rejected every time in parliament in huge numbers tells you it isn't happening and you can guess why not.

Fuck id be dusting off my trusty Lee Enfield .303 and joining in with my fellow dads army if they even tried it ;-)

 

[Coatigan]

Denmark, France, Ireland and us next?

Look by all means have your on democracy but just dont make the mistake of voting against the EU because you will be made to vote again until you give the answer they want.

Or do it right the first time.