Another new Brexit thread

[gandalfthebrave]

I think you're wrong about this. Remain marches pull hundreds of thousands. Leave marches pull hundreds.

99.9% of the stubborn Leave voters are ordinary people who don't really understand it and just want it over.

It's a massive if of course, but if there were a 2nd ref and we revoked, there'd be a week or two of rioting and it would settle down to grumbles and Facebook pictures. the Tommy Robinson types would be the only ones kicking up a stink and they are nasty, but there aren't many of them.

I love how you berate and belittle other posters and demand evidence for every last word they post. But 2/3 of the post above is absolute dog shit, conjecture at best.

“99.9% of the stubborn Leave voters are ordinary people who don't really understand it and just want it over.”

“It's a massive if of course, but if there were a 2nd ref and we revoked, there'd be a week or two of rioting and it would settle down to grumbles and Facebook pictures. the Tommy Robinson types would be the only ones kicking up a stink and they are nasty, but there aren't many of them.”

Evidence please!

And remember, David, “beliefs don’t cut it”, I think was your line?

 

[Chippy_boy]

Bercow has been refusing Johnson a vote because Parliament has already voted, so uses the arcane Erskine May procedure.
He did the same when May tried to get her deal through.
Labour apparently want to bring amendments for another referendum and staying in the customs union.
These have already been rejected by the house, so, if the little shit isn't partisan, these should be thrown out also.
Anyone fancy a bet?

Good point.

Moreover, can I just take this opportunity to point out - not that it needs pointing out - what an utter **** Corbyn is?

He must surely realise that any Brexit with a customs union means no end to freedom of movement. So is he lying about respecting the referendum result since everyone knows taking back control of our borders was a key issue, maybe THE key issue? Or is he lying about his ability to deliver a deal which combines customs union membership and control of our borders. Either way he is a liar, by at least the same magnitude of Boris in this matter.

Can we all gather around and call Corbyn a liar? Or does this particular insult only apply to Tories?

 

[BobKowalski]

Correction

‘Scottish Government say more - 44 instances of legislative consent required on WAB - either way SNP will see it as a pre-election gift that PM has described this process as having "no role" in this important legislation’ @BBC

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Not in the same parliamentary session, which is what that procedure refers to, i think? and i think those were indicative votes, rather than amendments or motions.
Anyway, has anyone actually proposed them yet? you could well be right if they do. Can't see it myself, yet.

You're right, they haven't proposed them yet, my bet is they will.

 

[purplenose]

Johnson really should take note, she's probably converted more remainers and soft brexiteers to his side with one tweet than he's managed in 3 months.

I was going to say even Corbyn, until I remembered his track record.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Perhaps the advantage I have over you in guessing the outcome of the next election is that I know how Leavers are likely to behave. Contrary to popular opinion we are not stupid and realise that voting for the Brexit Party in a constituency where the Tories are currently in first or second place would be counter productive. Boris has successfully convinced the vast majority of Leave voters that he's serious about delivering Brexit (suspending Parliament, chucking the wreckers out, reaching a deal with the EU) so I don't expect the Brexit Party to be a significant factor. Conservative Remainers prefer to leave with a deal rather than having Jeremy Corbyn, and I doubt the manifesto will be worded as no deal being the objective, rather that he will continue to strive for a deal but no deal must be on the table to help him with his negotiation. This will be enough for him to point to having a mandate for it if the EU tries taking the piss again.

Your post appears to assume that I only interact (and therefore empathise) with Remainers, which is wholly wrong. Many of my closest friends, colleagues and associates are inveterate Leavers. I also happen to personally know a couple of MPs, both of whom are stridently Leave, one being a minister. My older brother is also an ardent leaver, having voted UKIP on more than one occasion. I have had frequent conversations around the subject with all of the above, and continue to do so.

So I believe I'm suitably equipped to form a considered view on how Leavers are likely to behave. You've never met me and you're entitled to form whatever view you wish, but I doubt you know anyone with a more eclectic mixture of friends and associates than me, both socially and politically. One thing I've never done, is surround myself with people like, and with the same views as myself - as that would be far too boring - and given you are talking of having an advantage over others, something that has stood me in very good stead in life so far.

 

[BobKowalski]

Good point.

Moreover, can I just take this opportunity to point out - not that it needs pointing out - what an utter **** Corbyn is?

He must surely realise that any Brexit with a customs union means no end to freedom of movement. So is he lying about respecting the referendum result since everyone knows taking back control of our borders was a key issue, maybe THE key issue? Or is he lying about his ability to deliver a deal which combines customs union membership and control of our borders. Either way he is a liar, by at least the same magnitude of Boris in this matter.

Can we all gather around and call Corbyn a liar? Or does this particular insult only apply to Tories?

It’s more of a Johnson thing. Corbyn not noted for excessive or blatant falsehoods. You can call him a Marxist, Communist, Anti-Semite as these are quite popular on here. Also a useless leader who has set Labour back etc, etc. Probably other names as well. Can’t say I have been keeping count.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Good point.

Moreover, can I just take this opportunity to point out - not that it needs pointing out - what an utter **** Corbyn is?

He must surely realise that any Brexit with a customs union means no end to freedom of movement. So is he lying about respecting the referendum result since everyone knows taking back control of our borders was a key issue, maybe THE key issue? Or is he lying about his ability to deliver a deal which combines customs union membership and control of our borders. Either way he is a liar, by at least the same magnitude of Boris in this matter.

Can we all gather around and call Corbyn a liar? Or does this particular insult only apply to Tories?

Of course Corbyn's a liar, in fact he's featured in those clips more than anyone else.
So, for balance, we need about 4,500 posts calling him a liar.

 

[mcfc1632]

If you've been involved no wonder we had 4000 posts to the thread, on a matchday.

4000? Anyone do a precis? Is anyone dying in a ditch? Has anyone else on here switched sides? Do Leavers want to bother with an economic analysis? Or is blind faith still the order of the day?

4000 - really ????

Most by Remainers I would guess and I think some during the match - whereas my last contribution on a matchday was 5 hours before the match

Just not sure what 'devastating' point you are making - or is it just another muddled and confused day for you?​

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I think you're wrong about this. Remain marches pull hundreds of thousands. Leave marches pull hundreds.

99.9% of the stubborn Leave voters are ordinary people who don't really understand it and just want it over.

It's a massive if of course, but if there were a 2nd ref and we revoked, there'd be a week or two of rioting and it would settle down to grumbles and Facebook pictures. the Tommy Robinson types would be the only ones kicking up a stink and they are nasty, but there aren't many of them.

The country is split right down the middle on this. Numbers attending marches will do nothing to shake my view on that. Disagree with your view on the long term impact on our society, which I think will be huge if we don't leave, even greater (in a negative sense) than if we remain, despite the economic benefits - and I think Brexit is utterly wank.

 

[Chippy_boy]

It’s more of a Johnson thing. Corbyn not noted for excessive or blatant falsehoods. You can call him a Marxist, Communist, Anti-Semite as these are quite popular on here. Also a useless leader who has set Labour back etc, etc. Probably other names as well. Can’t say I have been keeping count.

I agree it's a Johnson thing, but the anti-Tory rhetoric on here is nauseating at times. There's a few posters who are more balanced in their views, but for many, Tory-bashing pervades their every post.

I will freely admit a whiff of hypocrisy here, since Corbyn-bashing is particular a hobby of mine. He could shave, put on a nice suit and vote for tax cuts for the rich and I'd still hate his guts.

 

[Vic]

So you keep saying.

I keep saying the opposite.

Only a GE will show who was right and who was wrong.

All analysis says two thirds of Labour voters voted Remain. Or do you think 48% of the electorate don't vote in general elections?

 

[purplenose]

Its a massive fuck up from top to bottom.

The EU seem to have escaped much blame for the whole sorry state of affairs.

They might want to think about their role in it and might want to think very carefully about the lessons they need to learn from it. As do perhaps the remainers in this country.

 

[BobKowalski]

Customs declarations are not checks in the lexicon of true believers.

Ah. There will be physical checks on food products from GB to NI though and even some tariffs but this will not apply from NI to GB. I can see the SNP elections Ads already over this unfair treatment for Scottish businesses :)

 

[hgblue]

Your post appears to assume that I only interact (and therefore empathise) with Remainers, which is wholly wrong. Many of my closest friends, colleagues and associates are inveterate Leavers. I also happen to personally know a couple of MPs, both of whom are stridently Leave, one being a minister. My older brother is also an ardent leaver, having voted UKIP on more than one occasion. I have had frequent conversations around the subject with all of the above, and continue to do so.

So I believe I'm suitably equipped to form a considered view on how Leavers are likely to behave. You've never met me and you're entitled to form whatever view you wish, but I doubt you know anyone with a more eclectic mixture of friends and associates than me, both socially and politically. One thing I've never done, is surround myself with people like, and with the same views as myself - as that would be far too boring - and given you are talking of having an advantage over others, something that has stood me in very good stead in life so far.

Fair enough. Although I think I remember you having a pop at guessing the performance of the Brexit Party in the European elections and being miles out? I also remember giving my own view well before hand and being proven right? I'm not having a pop at you or suggesting you're closed minded in any way, but I think it's self evident that I would have a better feel for how people who broadly share my views will be thinking. If you think the Brexit Party are going to be a significant factor in the upcoming election that's your view and I respect it, but I think you're wrong about this for the reasons I gave. Not long to wait until we find out either, no big deal either way.

 

[aguero93:20]

I agree it's a Johnson thing, but the anti-Tory rhetoric on here is nauseating at times. There's a few posters who are more balanced in their views, but for many, Tory-bashing pervades their every post.

This forum is far too kind to the cunts if you ask me.

 

[blueparrot]

Your post appears to assume that I only interact (and therefore empathise) with Remainers, which is wholly wrong. Many of my closest friends, colleagues and associates are inveterate Leavers. I also happen to personally know a couple of MPs, both of whom are stridently Leave, one being a minister. My older brother is also an ardent leaver, having voted UKIP on more than one occasion. I have had frequent conversations around the subject with all of the above, and continue to do so.

So I believe I'm suitably equipped to form a considered view on how Leavers are likely to behave. You've never met me and you're entitled to form whatever view you wish, but I doubt you know anyone with a more eclectic mixture of friends and associates than me, both socially and politically. One thing I've never done, is surround myself with people like, and with the same views as myself - as that would be far too boring - and given you are talking of having an advantage over others, something that has stood me in very good stead in life so far.

I know many leavers too and I know they all have different attitudes to what they would do in the event of another referendum or an election. Quite a few are more resigned to what will be will be rather than angry or ready to tear up their life long politics over a single issue. Some are angry enough to say they won't vote at all as it's a waste of time. Some have changed their mind and just want it over, and the final group will change their vote to try and force a Brexit.

 

[BobKowalski]

Its a massive fuck up from top to bottom.

The EU seem to have escaped much blame for the whole sorry state of affairs.

They might want to think about their role in it and might want to think very carefully about the lessons they need to learn from it. As do perhaps the remainers in this country.

You mean by making sure they are being seen to fair and transparent in this process?

Open negotiations? Of course Mr Johnson. Can we accept the U.K. having an internal customs border in the Irish Sea? Why only if you insist Mr Johnson. £39 billion plus more for future transition extensions? I think we can accommodate that Mr Johnson.

Amazing what being nice will get you :)

 

[Vic]

On the contrary, those short of mips are those who cannot that see what Johnson has been doing has been seeking to drive through a deal as best he can with the cards he's been dealt.

He volunteered. He knew what the cards were. He said he had other cards up his sleeve and as a renowned cheat he thought he could use them.

Are you really expecting sympathy for the liar?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Fair enough. Although I think I remember you having a pop at guessing the performance of the Brexit Party in the European elections and being miles out? I also remember giving my own view well before hand and being proven right? I'm not having a pop at you or suggesting you're closed minded in any way, but I think it's self evident that I would have a better feel for how people who broadly share my views will be thinking. If you think the Brexit Party are going to be a significant factor in the upcoming election that's your view and I respect it, but I think you're wrong about this for the reasons I gave. Not long to wait until we find out either, no big deal either way.

I can't recall specifically predicting the performance of the Brexit Party, but I do recall predicting the overall share of the vote of Brexit supporting parties, which is a debatable outcome depending on where you place Labour (given their manifesto and subsequent ambivalence) but my view on the numbers has been pretty consentient, in that the country is pretty much split down the middle on this and I believe this will reflect in the outcome of a GE. If I'm wrong, it wont be the first time and unlike others (not including you I would say) I can live with being wrong on this and other subjects - it happens to everyone, and I'm secure enough in myself to accept it as part of being human - and I expect you have the same perspective.