Another new Brexit thread

[BobKowalski]

I agree it's a Johnson thing, but the anti-Tory rhetoric on here is nauseating at times. There's a few posters who are more balanced in their views, but for many, Tory-bashing pervades their every post.

I will freely admit a whiff of hypocrisy here, since Corbyn-bashing is particular a hobby of mine. He could shave, put on a nice suit and vote for tax cuts for the rich and I'd still hate his guts.

As is your democratic right :)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I know many leavers too and I know they all have different attitudes to what they would do in the event of another referendum or an election. Quite a few are more resigned to what will be will be rather than angry or ready to tear up their life long politics over a single issue. Some are angry enough to say they won't vote at all as it's a waste of time. Some have changed their mind and just want it over, and the final group will change their vote to try and force a Brexit.

I know plenty who say if it doesn't happen they will never vote again, which is troubling, even though when push comes to shove, I expect some of them will.

 

[Vic]

I’d say a combination of everything.

Politics will be absolute poison in our main parties and the general public if we don’t leave with this deal.

That’s not the fault of leave voters, I’m more inclined to blame the politicians now, past and present.

If I’d voted for something that hadn’t been implemented, I’d be absolutely seething.

What about implementing something that nobody voted for? Unless every Leave voter knew the deal would break up the UK...

 

[hgblue]

I can't recall specifically predicting the performance of the Brexit Party, but I do recall predicting the overall share of the vote of Brexit supporting parties, which is a debatable outcome depending on where you place Labour (given their manifesto and subsequent ambivalence) but my view on the numbers has been pretty consentient, in that the country is pretty much split down the middle on this and I believe this will reflect in the outcome of a GE. If I'm wrong, it wont be the first time and unlike others (not including you I would say) I can live with being wrong on this and other subjects - it happens to everyone, and I'm secure enough in myself to accept it as part of being human - and I expect you have the same perspective.

Agreed.

 

[Vic]

Like it or not, check the last 3 years out and his predictions of what would transpire from both government and opposition and ends and the EU have been pretty spot on.

Didn't he predict we could be like Norway? Rich, and in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.

 

[purplenose]

You mean by making sure they are being seen to fair and transparent in this process?

Open negotiations? Of course Mr Johnson. Can we accept the U.K. having an internal customs border in the Irish Sea? Why only if you insist Mr Johnson. £39 billion plus more for future transition extensions? I think we can accommodate that Mr Johnson.

Amazing what being nice will get you :)

I am not having a dig at the EUs role in the negotiations. I agree with you in so much as they have been pretty straight in that respect and clearly nobody can expect them to do anything other than what they judge best for themselves.

My suggestion goes beyond these negotiations. As I have stated before my issue is with the direction the EU has chosen to head, and its seeming refusal to see that Brexit could well be the beginning of the end for it.

 

[BlueAnorak]

You are right - I am down the road in Wokingham - John Redwood's constituency

Even though it is a Remain constituency and Redwood has 'gone against' that position - there is absolutely zero chance that the Conservatives will not win here

The threat of Corbyn totally dwarfs any risk that Brexit might introduce.

I have been saying for months that a lot of the UK-wide Remain vote will be dissipated in a GE in a manner that does not see Labour do well

In Scotland we know where that will go - but it makes no difference from 2015/17

In major cities we know where that will go - but it makes no difference from 2015/17

It is in the marginals that the GE will be won or lost. I can see the Remain vote splitting between LibDems and Labour - allowing the Conservatives to mop up and secure a working majority. It may be small so that is a good reason that they were right to purge the 21 dissenters - and ideally any others that cannot be relied upon on this major issue.

But the Brexit vote will also be split. 12% of the electorate will vote Brexit Party and as a result probably let Remain win.
The Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid will form a Remain coalition throughout England and Wales that will damage sitting Tory MPs.
If the Brexit Party and Tory party come to a deal then they will win, but as they wont it will result in a hung Parliament with the Tory party being the largest party probably with roughly the same number of Tory MPs. Labour -40 and the Remain Alliance +40.

 

[Vic]

That you think he's a persistent liar, I get.

I simply have issue with people saying person xyz lied about something when the actual reality is they simply failed to deliver it. It's a common (and usually deliberate) mistake on here and it winds me up. You can say Johnson lied that we would be out on October 31st if you like, just as you can say 2 + 2 = 7, if you want to. You'd still be wrong.

I'm going to get you to change back to being a Remainer. Lie or failed delivery?

I'm going to get mcfc1632 to admit he knows nothing. Lie or failed delivery?

 

[meltonblue]

I agree it's a Johnson thing, but the anti-Tory rhetoric on here is nauseating at times. There's a few posters who are more balanced in their views, but for many, Tory-bashing pervades their every post.

I will freely admit a whiff of hypocrisy here, since Corbyn-bashing is particular a hobby of mine. He could shave, put on a nice suit and vote for tax cuts for the rich and I'd still hate his guts.

I dislike them both. The reason you'll get more tory bashing is because they're the government and have been throughout this entire process. For those not on the extremes that wanted to see the referendum honoured but also mindful of minimising the impact, their approach since day one has been deserving of vitriol.

 

[Vic]

All politicians lie. It's part of their job description. Anyone who thinks otherwise is seriously deluded. Here are some corkers from 3 years ago.

Not lies. Just failed delivery.

 

[Hesperus]

The country is split right down the middle on this. Numbers attending marches will do nothing to shake my view on that. Disagree with your view on the long term impact on our society, which I think will be huge if we don't leave, even greater (in a negative sense) than if we remain, despite the economic benefits - and I think Brexit is utterly wank.

I think the impact on society is buggered either way. Unfortunately I think we’ll leave and it will be a hard Tory Brexit. The economic downturn will hit the poorest hardest and those poorest who voted to leave will become very disgruntled that the promised land of milk and honey wasn’t realised.

 

[Ban-jani]

What about implementing something that nobody voted for? Unless every Leave voter knew the deal would break up the UK...

The government and those pushing for Brexit in the Tory Party said in 2016 that we’d leave the CU and SM, whilst agreeing a FTA with the EU.

This deal does that.

 

[George Hannah]

Ah. There will be physical checks on food products from GB to NI though and even some tariffs but this will not apply from NI to GB. I can see the SNP elections Ads already over this unfair treatment for Scottish businesses :)

One of the few benefits of Brexit on current terms would be that this sort of piffle comparing Scotland to Ulster will evaporate as the SNP slide into extinction.

 

[Len Rum]

Good point.
Moreover, can I just take this opportunity to point out - not that it needs pointing out - what an utter **** Corbyn is?
He must surely realise that any Brexit with a customs union means no end to freedom of movement. So is he lying

Moreover mate can I just take this opportunity to point out that a customs union for goods does not mean 'no end to freedom of movement'.
Turkey is in a customs union for goods with the EU but there is no freedom of movement between Turkey and the EU.
Think you should apologise to Jezz.

 

[Vic]

Yet all we hear is Johnson's a liar every 5 minutes.
I don't believe the public are going along with this constant narrative, we all know they all lie, it's
there in that compilation as plain as daylight.

But Johnson on his own has told more lies than all those individuals talking about failed delivery.

 

[west didsblue]

The government and those pushing for Brexit in the Tory Party said in 2016 that we’d leave the CU and SM, whilst agreeing a FTA with the EU.

This deal does that.

It doesn't.
It provides a small window of opportunity for an FTA to be agreed before an extension to transition would be needed to avoid WTO. As FTAs typically take years and the withdrawal bill as it stands requires the government to request the transition extension without recourse to parliament there is a much higher probability that no FTA will be agreed in the few months available, and we would crash out at the end of 2020, to the delight of the ERG and their billionaire backers.

 

[Blue Hefner]

A bit of light-relief

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

But the Brexit vote will also be split. 12% of the electorate will vote Brexit Party and as a result probably let Remain win.
The Lib Dems, Greens and Plaid will form a Remain coalition throughout England and Wales that will damage sitting Tory MPs.
If the Brexit Party and Tory party come to a deal then they will win, but as they wont it will result in a hung Parliament with the Tory party being the largest party probably with roughly the same number of Tory MPs.

Also how I see it. The leave vote is massively overplayed - especially now there is a shit deal on the table. Labour voters are majority remainers, as much as 80% remain and they will stick with Labour in the brexity areas as tactical voting will come in. Those voters that are lost by labour will vote BP, but tories will also vote for BP because BoJo hasn't delivered brexit. In many of the seats that Tories think they will hold or take easily they will come 2nd or even 3rd.

In the South and some bigger cities I can see Lib Dem doing very well - taking 40 or more from Tories and some from Labour. The SNP will wipe tories out in Scotland. I imagine a net loss of seats for both Tories and Labour. A big Lib Dem gain and a handfull to the BP. + More soft tory indies like Grieve. A hung Parl with no one close to a majority is how i see it.

 

[yerwot?]

I am not having a dig at the EUs role in the negotiations. I agree with you in so much as they have been pretty straight in that respect and clearly nobody can expect them to do anything other than what they judge best for themselves.

My suggestion goes beyond these negotiations. As I have stated before my issue is with the direction the EU has chosen to head, and its seeming refusal to see that Brexit could well be the beginning of the end for it.

Thats what you get posting on the same page as the prince of pompous piffle and his sock puppet......"passive bullshit"

 

[BlueAnorak]

Not lies. Just failed delivery.

Ha. If it was failed delivery, they'd have been trying to set up a deal, or have come to an arrangement with Theresa May when they had the chance. They certainly wouldn't have been pushing a Losers Referendum.
They didn't, so as per all politicians, they lied.