Another new Brexit thread

[BlueAnorak]

What FTA? Seriously, do you think negotiations for a FTA will be "frictionless" within the Tory party? "Get this deal done" then leave it to "a Downing Street spokesman" to "Get this next deal done"? ERG pushing for a hard deal, most Tory MPs still looking for the "customs arrangement" that May agreed to pursue....

Nah. May totally messed it up and Conservative MPs dont want to be deselected by constituancy members. NOT agreeing with Brexit would certainly be the end of their assignment to the Golden Trough of the HoC".

 

[Chippy_boy]

So the Northern train timetable is a lie?

I've no idea what you're on about Vic. You're not dim, so you understand what lie means. It does not mean saying something you believe to be true and subsequently failing to deliver it. You know that, so stop pissing about wasting everyone's time with nonsense.

 

[BobKowalski]

The government and those pushing for Brexit in the Tory Party said in 2016 that we’d leave the CU and SM, whilst agreeing a FTA with the EU.

This deal does that.

It doesn’t though. This deal is not a guarantee of anything that may or may not happen in 3, 5 or 10 years time. All this deal does is get us x number of years in status quo transition, ECJ oversight on citizen rights post transition and a guarantee that to avoid a land border in NI post transition we will accept a border down the Irish Sea.

It points to the deal we would like to do, a standard FTA, and says we can’t do anything else but if a future Govt sits down with the EU and says we want Single Market membership and the EU agree then that’s what we will have. We can try and bind ourselves but we cannot bind the EU. If Labour get parity for workers rights in the Treaty then to reduce them requires both parties, the UK and EU, to agree. Which is why the Tories don’t want these rights in the Treaty. This is also why scrutiny and debate are crucial.

The only thing this deal guarantees is years of negotiations with the EU and endless internal debates about what we want in our relationship with the EU but at least we can keep the country running while having these negotiations. This is all this deal does.

 

[adrianr]

Our democratic system would collapse if we didn't govern solely for the winners. Will Labour be enacting Tory policies if they won an election by a single vote? Not a chance.

Setting aside what sort of seats you'd end up with if a party won by a single vote, with a minority government then quite literally yes, they could. Or at least, they would have to heavily water down their 'Labour' version to get Tory votes on side, or some variant their of. Of course if a government gets a large majority it has a stronger mandate from the public to compromise less (or not at all) on their policies, but this is always against the backdrop that should any particular policy piss off the electorate at large, we get to change our minds at the next general election.

If we had voted to remain by 0.1% then would you accept we must leave the EU with a soft-Brexit to satisfy all parties.....?

Eh? Why would a remain victory mean a soft-Brexit? A close remain victory would be remaining, but as I said in my previous post, trying to address the concerns of the leavers within that framework. 0.1% leave victory would be leaving, but addressing concerns of the remainers. How much you give way to either side depends on the margins, just as it does at a GE.

The whole point of the first referendum was to determine whether we leave or not and nothing more because that is all the question demanded.

Correct, which is why the next steps after should have been a public consultation of what type the public wanted, and not stupidly submitting A50 and starting all this "No deal better than a bad deal" nonsense.

People decided in that to leave and they didn't have the knowledge of what leave meant but now they do so surely the only referendum we can have is one where we decide how to leave.

Putting remain back on there just means you aren't interested in respecting any referendum and actually all you want is an opportunity to get the result that lost.

Ok, but you're not giving people a proper choice of how to leave, because I haven't seen a single suggestion from any one of you that a super soft Brexit should be on the ballot. You just want a choice between Johnson's hard brexit, or an even harder no deal Brexit, both of which amount to more or less the same thing. Pandering to a small subset of the leave vote, disregarding much of it and completely disregarding the entire remain vote. No compromise what so ever. Metal Biker wanting EFTA is I think about as soft as it gets.

The EU gave us a list of acceptable deals years ago, one of which Johnson has now picked to move forward with as 'his'. If you want another referendum of only leave options then include all the options the EU offered, including the softest possible Brexit, and see which way it goes. I've no problem with that. Personally I still think whilst the maintaining the status quo is still an option it's only prudent to keep it as a choice, but I can also see why it shouldn't be.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/options-uk-trading-relationship-eu

Throw those on there and you have a deal.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think there’s a GE coming and he’ll get a majority. The Party will then unite behind him and those that don’t will become outcasts.

This is just a prediction but this is what I genuinely think that will happen.

FWIW I think we're heading for an extension of only maybe 1 month, just to get Brexit done. I think Boris has the numbers and faced with the unknowns of a winter GE and maybe few of the wrinkled "out, out, out" voters struggling to get out to vote, that will be the most appealing option.

 

[BobKowalski]

One of the few benefits of Brexit on current terms would be that this sort of piffle comparing Scotland to Ulster will evaporate as the SNP slide into extinction.

On that we do not agree. Time will be the judge.

 

[west didsblue]

He can be PM for the next decade if he gets this right, with a FTA.

He can be PM for 5 years if he gets it wrong without an FTA and he can cash in.

 

[George Hannah]

On that we do not agree. Time will be the judge.

I think their significance is inflated by their blatant exploitation of Parliament as a media platform. When one stands up at PMQs the others are like a pack of performing seals smacking their flippers and emitting incomprehensible honks. Outside the TV set pieces they are conspicuously absent - most probably guzzling whiskey soaked porridge and snorting coke.

 

[Ban-jani]

It doesn’t though. This deal is not a guarantee of anything that may or may not happen in 3, 5 or 10 years time. All this deal does is get us x number of years in status quo transition, ECJ oversight on citizen rights post transition and a guarantee that to avoid a land border in NI post transition we will accept a border down the Irish Sea.

It points to the deal we would like to do, a standard FTA, and says we can’t do anything else but if a future Govt sits down with the EU and says we want Single Market membership and the EU agree then that’s what we will have. We can try and bind ourselves but we cannot bind the EU. If Labour get parity for workers rights in the Treaty then to reduce them requires both parties, the UK and EU, to agree. Which is why the Tories don’t want these rights in the Treaty. This is also why scrutiny and debate are crucial.

The only thing this deal guarantees is years of negotiations with the EU and endless internal debates about what we want in our relationship with the EU but at least we can keep the country running while having these negotiations. This is all this deal does.

Was it ever going to be any different?

 

[blueparrot]

I think their significance is inflated by their blatant exploitation of Parliament as a media platform. When one stands up at PMQs the others are like a pack of performing seals smacking their flippers and emitting incomprehensible honks. Outside the TV set pieces they are conspicuously absent - most probably guzzling whiskey soaked porridge and snorting coke.

You obviously have no understanding of politics and the standing of the SNP in Scotland itself, good stereotyping though, well done.

 

[George Hannah]

You obviously have no understanding of politics and the standing of the SNP in Scotland itself, good stereotyping though, well done.

In which case they should stay where they are properly appreciated and spare the rest of us the tartan experience.

 

[aguero93:20]

In which case they should stay where they are properly appreciated and spare the rest of us the tartan experience.

I rather think that's their endgame tbh.

 

[Chippy_boy]

He can be PM for 5 years if he gets it wrong without an FTA and he can cash in.

Sure, he took his £89k a year MP job to line his back pocket, rather than the £2m a year he'd have invariably been able to get on some company board or other. Damned cunning these Tories.

 

[George Hannah]

I rather think that's their endgame tbh.

Brexit is their endgame.

 

[Ban-jani]

He can be PM for 5 years if he gets it wrong without an FTA and he can cash in.

He can but I genuinely don’t think any Prime Minister would do that, when the chance of a FTA is there.

Johnson wants no deal rather than no Brexit but he definitely wouldn’t go for no deal if there is a deal to be done.

Despite him being a self obsessed ****.

 

[blueparrot]

In which case they should stay where they are properly appreciated and spare the rest of us the tartan experience.

They are trying.

 

[aguero93:20]

He can but I genuinely don’t think any Prime Minister would do that, when the chance of a FTA is there.

Johnson wants no deal rather than no Brexit but he definitely wouldn’t go for no deal if there is a deal to be done.

Despite him being a self obsessed ****.

Can he get an FTA passed by both the ERG and the moderate wing?

 

[Ban-jani]

Sure, he took his £89k a year MP job to line his back pocket, rather than the £2m a year he'd have invariably been able to get on some company board or other. Damned cunning these Tories.

He’s a complete tosser on many levels but he’s all about making a name for himself and getting the top job, which he’s got now.

He’ll want his name and legacy to not be of total and utter disaster. Brexit was his only chance of getting the top job and his reputation has quite rightly been damaged, well for half the country, he won’t want to continue to damage it when a deal is there to be done.

 

[Ban-jani]

Can he get an FTA passed by both the ERG and the moderate wing?

He’ll have a majority and won’t need the ERG I don’t think.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Hopefully one of these days you may have the opportunity to share those profundities face to face with a few ordinary people who don't really understand what they want. It could be a memorable clarifying moment for you.

Are you asking @Didsbury Dave out on a date?

If so, make sure you don't let him get past second base, or he won't respect you in the morning.