Another new Brexit thread

[117 M34]

I am confident that you are the one talking rubbish. You do so with great confidence and just like your cornershop economics you are wrong. Your posts should carry a party political warning.

Either way not long to wait to see who's right, assuming Johnson wins.

Here's an amusing prospect for you

In the very unlikely event he didn't win his seat but the tories did win the election, would he be able to be pm?

 

[Chippy_boy]

You're aware we took the offer that the EU originally set out about having the border in the Irish sea? The deal Boris Johnson himself said no prime minister should accept?

Not this shit again, please. What do you not understand about the EU's unequivocable, non-negotiable, fixed, immovable position that the WA and backstop could not be renegotiated under ANY circumstances???? How hard is that to get your head around?

Show me a quote from anyone saying "We are not regotiating the WA and backstop unless you revert to a set of negotiations we were considering earlier". No such statement exists, so please stop with this shite. The EU said no changes could be accepted, and then changed their tune when threatened with us leaving come what may by October 31st. This is an undenial objective statement of what happened.

You *might* dispute what drove the EU to reconsider. But any assertion that they re-opened the negotiations because we started considering a previous option, holds no water. Why? Because the deal Johnson has negotiated is WORSE for the EU. So why would they suddenly have decided to bin something better (from their perspective) and accept something worse, without other pressures? It is a bankrupt argument which holds no water. It is just wrong.

 

[dave_blue12]

Based on what, Dave? Venezuela? I mean seriously, how many successful politically hard left economies can you name. Seriously.

How many times does your political standpoint have to be proven to be a failure before you will recognise it? 100 times? 1,000 times? High taxes, high regulation, state-interference with this ridiculous "we know best" ideology, has failed time and time and time again. And yet you *still* refuse to accept it.

And you accuse *me* of being brainwashed? It's really quite astonishing. Maybe you are only in your 20's or something and do no remember what shit we had to put up with under Wilson, for example? Or maybe you've just not read up on these things, I really do not know. But unless - as per Corbyn and McDonnell you are ideologically on some mission of hatred for the well-off, irrespective of how much you fuck everyone else over as well, then pursuing the sorts of policies Corbyn and McDonnell espouse, makes no sense whatsoever.

You should try reading what I have written rather than reading what you want into it.

Just because I can see what a shitshow the Tory party is doesn't mean that I am a hard left winger. I absolutely am not.

In truth I find myself politically homeless just as I'm sure many people who would hold the centre ground do right now.

You are clearly not stupid, try taking your Tory hat off and looking dispationately at what they have actually done. Don't try to justify it just look at what they have done.

 

[dave_blue12]

Except the reverse is the case - Johnson is actually the great hope and patsy of the raw capitalist lobby and Brexit is their gamechanger. For me the reptilian repose of Rees Mogg is the true trademark of entitlement and the squirmings of minor Royals just another smokescreen.

I agree with all except your view of Johnson, he knows exactly what he is doing and therefore cannot be a patsy.

 

[dave_blue12]

In the very unlikely event he didn't win his seat but the tories did win the election, would he be able to be pm?

Whilst I am not an expert I think that technically he could but I feel sure the ambitions of others who did get elected would sieze the opportunity.

 

[George Hannah]

I agree with all except your view of Johnson, he knows exactly what he is doing and therefore cannot be a patsy.

Maybe patsy implies they've been duped in which case it's inaccurate. Just like Corbyn, Johnson is happy to front his shadowy backers and both know they will be speedily replaced when they've served their purpose. The irony is that neither think the current Brexit deal constitutes economic suicide or even self-harm but both support it for entirely incompatible reasons.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You should try reading what I have written rather than reading what you want into it.

Just because I can see what a shitshow the Tory party is doesn't mean that I am a hard left winger. I absolutely am not.

In truth I find myself politically homeless just as I'm sure many people who would hold the centre ground do right now.

You are clearly not stupid, try taking your Tory hat off and looking dispationately at what they have actually done. Don't try to justify it just look at what they have done.

Objectively, they have reduced the deficit from £150bn to less than £50bn whilst growing GDP faster than the rest of the EU and reducing the deficit as a percentage of GDP, by an even greater amount. They have maintained low interest rates and record high levels of employment. And they have presided over an incredibly difficult period of harsh and painful cuts to public services, which people have certainly suffered from, and won 2 subsequent general elections during the process - no mean feat. So that we now stand poised to start reinvesting, having got our finances on a more sound footing.

What do you suggest they have done which differs from that?

That you don't like cuts, I get. We know already. Tories and virtually all others back in 2010 felt they were necessary. Even Labour supported them.

So other than the public service cuts, what is it specifically which you find so objectionable?

 

[RabidCity]

Objectively, they have reduced the deficit from £150bn to less than £50bn whilst growing GDP faster than the rest of the EU and reducing the deficit as a percentage of GDP, by an even greater amount. They have maintained low interest rates and record high levels of employment. And they have presided over an incredibly difficult period of harsh and painful cuts to public services, which people have certainly suffered from, and won 2 subsequent general elections during the process - no mean feat. So that we now stand poised to start reinvesting, having got our finances on a more sound footing.

What do you suggest they have done which differs from that?

That you don't like cuts, I get. We know already. Tories and virtually all others back in 2010 felt they were necessary. Even Labour supported them.

So other than the public service cuts, what is it specifically which you find so objectionable?

This is the ultimate measure and we were in dire straights 10 years ago. Cuts were never going to be easy but were completely necessary. I have to say they did a good job in difficult times from that perspective.

 

[BobKowalski]

Objectively, they have reduced the deficit from £150bn to less than £50bn whilst growing GDP faster than the rest of the EU and reducing the deficit as a percentage of GDP, by an even greater amount. They have maintained low interest rates and record high levels of employment. And they have presided over an incredibly difficult period of harsh and painful cuts to public services, which people have certainly suffered from, and won 2 subsequent general elections during the process - no mean feat. So that we now stand poised to start reinvesting, having got our finances on a more sound footing.

What do you suggest they have done which differs from that?

That you don't like cuts, I get. We know already. Tories and virtually all others back in 2010 felt they were necessary. Even Labour supported them.

So other than the public service cuts, what is it specifically which you find so objectionable?

That the cuts were too deep and went on for too long and were maintained for ideological reasons than fiscal.

 

[BobKowalski]

Article on the prospect of internal tariffs between GB and NI.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50439671

 

[Chippy_boy]

This is the ultimate measure and we were in dire straights 10 years ago. Cuts were never going to be easy but were completely necessary. I have to say they did a good job in difficult times from that perspective.

Ed Milliband (red Ed, no less) in 2014:

“Clearly the next Labour government will face massive fiscal challenges. Including having to cut spending."

This was a left-leaning Labour oppositions view, after 4 years of cuts already.

This "needless austerity" line is pure revisionism. People voted for it in 2010, 2015 and 2017 (to a lesser extent) and it was widely supported as being the right thing to do, and being necessary. And those on the left now, have forgotten all that and simply want to criticise Tory cuts to public services as being in some way foisted up us by an evil Tory party. Such thinking is I am afraid, bollocks.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Article on the prospect of internal tariffs between GB and NI.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50439671

It's 2019 now Bob, you seem to be living in spring 2016 and still on your Remain campaign.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

Missing the point a bit there mate. To spell it out, the point being that people say all sorts of things prior to negotiations, only to concede them later. They said no way, no how would they be renegotiating the WA or the backstop, and yet when faced with just a tiny bit of pressure, they did.

Or did Boris concede quite a lot because he did the one thing that you should never do and insisted on a self imposed time constraint? The EU knew he was absolutely desperate to get an agreement by 31 October and didn’t it show? Him and his cabal have sold N.Ireland down the river by breaking every promise they ever made. I appreciate your desperation for a Tory government but one led by this charlatan?

 

[Vic]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Boris isn't a liar that talks bollocks, just that he's in good company.

He's in a class of his own. Toff class superior lies.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Or did Boris concede quite a lot because he did the one thing that you should never do and insisted on a self imposed time constraint? The EU knew he was absolutely desperate to get an agreement by 31 October and didn’t it show? Him and his cabal have sold N.Ireland down the river by breaking every promise they ever made. I appreciate your desperation for a Tory government but one led by this charlatan?

That's a fair point, but it cuts both ways. I'm in sales and saying the deal is off if we don't get it done by <date> can be a very powerful tactic in the right circumstances. The key being it has to be believable, and that's why Johnson was so emphatic about the October 31 date I think, and his "come what may, we're leaving". You can read it either way, but on balance I think he played it right.

I'm no fan of his, as I have said previously. I am constantly hearing (and I agree) that Labour would be doing so much better were the ultimate dickhead which is Corbyn, were not running the Labour party. But the same can be true of the Tories can't it. Boris is hardly the most universally-liked politician they could have chosen. Admittedly the contenders were all shite in their own ways as well, mind.

 

[dave_blue12]

Objectively, they have reduced the deficit from £150bn to less than £50bn whilst growing GDP faster than the rest of the EU and reducing the deficit as a percentage of GDP, by an even greater amount. They have maintained low interest rates and record high levels of employment. And they have presided over an incredibly difficult period of harsh and painful cuts to public services, which people have certainly suffered from, and won 2 subsequent general elections during the process - no mean feat. So that we now stand poised to start reinvesting, having got our finances on a more sound footing.

What do you suggest they have done which differs from that?

That you don't like cuts, I get. We know already. Tories and virtually all others back in 2010 felt they were necessary. Even Labour supported them.

So other than the public service cuts, what is it specifically which you find so objectionable?

I’m out and about just now but your assessment is superficial and dare I say lacking insight.

I will get back to you with a fuller response when I have the time.

 

[BobKowalski]

It's 2019 now Bob, you seem to be living in spring 2016 and still on your Remain campaign.

These proposals were made barely two months ago. In 2019. How this will work in practice will be the one of the biggest issues of 2020. Wishing these issues away won’t work unfortunately.

 

[Vic]

Not this shit again, please. What do you not understand about the EU's unequivocable, non-negotiable, fixed, immovable position that the WA and backstop could not be renegotiated under ANY circumstances???? How hard is that to get your head around?

Show me a quote from anyone saying "We are not regotiating the WA and backstop unless you revert to a set of negotiations we were considering earlier". No such statement exists, so please stop with this shite. The EU said no changes could be accepted, and then changed their tune when threatened with us leaving come what may by October 31st. This is an undenial objective statement of what happened.

You *might* dispute what drove the EU to reconsider. But any assertion that they re-opened the negotiations because we started considering a previous option, holds no water. Why? Because the deal Johnson has negotiated is WORSE for the EU. So why would they suddenly have decided to bin something better (from their perspective) and accept something worse, without other pressures? It is a bankrupt argument which holds no water. It is just wrong.

Funny how if I Google "johnson deal worse for EU" all I get is Brexit Party people saying Johnson's deal is worse for Britain than Remaining in the EU...

 

[Chippy_boy]

Funny how if I Google "johnson deal worse for EU" all I get is Brexit Party people saying Johnson's deal is worse for Britain than Remaining in the EU...

Er, no shit Sherlock, that's because it is???

But Leave we must, and it's a far better deal than May cobbled together.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I’m out and about just now but your assessment is superficial and dare I say lacking insight.

I will get back to you with a fuller response when I have the time.

I'm not hanging on your every breath mate. In fact I'd go so far as to say it would be a complete waste of your time. I've been a life-long supporter of conservatives principles and I am not about to switch horses because of the IMO flawed opinions of some bloke on a football forum.