General Election - December 12th, 2019

[Len Rum]

In the 'singular red' eye of the beholder lol

You obviously haven't seen Johnson's speech.
Watch it and tell me what you think.

 

[George Hannah]

You obviously haven't seen Johnson's speech.
Watch it and tell me what you think.

I can't bring myself to listen to Johnson these days, it is just too upsetting. Gone right off since HIGNFY.

 

[mcfc1632]

The back he stabbed was about as popular as herpes, then when he got in, the EU all of a sudden started talking, something
that many on here, in parliament, in fact every remainer, said they would NEVER do.
Yet they did.
Now I know this will bring yet another flurry of it was this, that, or the other, that did it, but frankly, at this juncture, not many shits are
given, because it's all been done, and Johnson's deal passed passed in parliament.

They seem to be some state of 'collective denial'

It's as if they were to ever - just once - admit that they were plainly wrong (in this case that the EU would not renegotiate the EU and that Johnson's stance with even the risk of a No-Deal outcome resulted in them in fact doing so) - then their bubble would be burst and all would be lost.

There is no debating with them/explaining to them - it is a state of the utterly desperate denial of simple facts.

One last try:

1. Yes we all know that the Irish sea option was a previously offered stance - why the fuck do you keep repeating this?

2. Yes we all know that the 'whole UK' option was a May/Robbins solution - why the fuck do you keep repeating this?

There must have been much champagne drunk in Brussels that night when they were handed something - the unfettered backstop - that was much more valuable than what they had been seeking.

3. So the May deal became the EU's treasured outcome - at a stroke it would allow them unilateral control over the UK's key policies for many years to come. Of course that became much more valuable and desirable to the EU than the Irish sea option and that is why they said that they would not reopen the WA - it provided a total remedy to any/all the main risks that they see from a UK Brexit.

4. Against all the odds and in spite of the machinations of the Westminster acolytes and the views of the key Remainers on here, Johnson's stance aided by even the risk of a No-Deal outcome resulted in them in fact doing a renegotiation and giving up something that they had secured and moving back to a lesser outcome.

It matters not a single fuck if this 'new/old' position is something that had been considered before - the simple fact is that the EU moved their position from the May deal which was far better for them and removed the poisonous unfettered backstop - and this was a major climbdown by the EU/achievement for the UK.

Can people not just be pleased at a good outcome for the UK? It does, or at least should not matter if you support Remain or Leave - you should still want a good outcome for the UK.

The unfettered backstop would have been ruinous for the UK

 

[Mike D]

Well I don't know about changes in the way in which the NHS budget is calculated (?) but if that's not true, then a real terms increase matters as well as an increase in the per patient spending (which have both happened) because it's enough to show that the NHS hasn't been cut (by almost all metrics). Whether that increase is enough, or whether that money is being spent in the right areas, is a different question.

Again, on not reclaiming money from foreign patients, the idea that it would cost more to reclaim seems absurd but if you've got credible evidence otherwise then I'll change my mind but on issue of size, yes it's a fraction of the NHS budget but that's not a reason to not do it. One estimate is that it would allow us to recoup £290M (which is a low estimate), which is much bigger than the profit of Royal Mail.

Real term increases do matter but its the % increases that makes sense its just common sense because that is how we measure inflation and that gives us a proper indicator of what money is going in. You are right putting money in isn't the only way of assessing how well the NHS is doing. All you have to do is look at the recent NHS report on waiting times to see that they are abysmal and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856 Just not spending money because we don't think that they spend it wisely is a sad and pitiful excuse.

Here's something on health tourism 2016 but still relevant
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-health-tourism-cost-nhs-billions

 

[mcfc1632]

50% in less than 10 years, that seems incredible to me but I've had a quick look and it seems as though you are correct. It makes me ask, where is all the money going?

Reflects a rising and ageing population - on average it costs twice as much to treat each 65+ year old as for each 30 year old.

Both the previous Labour government and the subsequent Tory government have been guilty of wasting many £billions through 'reorganisations' rather than funding front-line services.

The problem is - as being seen at the moment - that the political parties cannot resist using the NHS as a political football.

It needs a management team to be given 20 years free of political interference to implement a H&SC strategy - that was what Simon Stevens was 'sort of' promised when he was appointed.

 

[George Hannah]

Both the previous Labour government and the subsequent Tory government have been guilty of wasting many £billions through 'reorganisations' rather than funding front-line services.

The problem is - as being seen at the moment - the political parties cannot resist using the NHS as a political football. It needs a management team to be given 20 years free of political interference to implement a H&SC strategy - that was what Simon Stevens was 'sort of' promised when he was appointed.

The NHS is used a political football - they must think the public is thick not to see through their propaganda.

 

[hilts]

Real term increases do matter but its the % increases that makes sense its just common sense because that is how we measure inflation and that gives us a proper indicator of what money is going in. You are right putting money in isn't the only way of assessing how well the NHS is doing. All you have to do is look at the recent NHS report on waiting times to see that they are abysmal and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856 Just not spending money because we don't think that they spend it wisely is a sad and pitiful excuse.

Here's something on health tourism 2016 but still relevant
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-health-tourism-cost-nhs-billions

Eh? Real term takes into account inflation it's a better way of stating if you have increased spending. I think some are wriggling out of the previous point they have cut funding.

If you want to say they should be spending x% above inflation then fair enough.

If the govt said we are putting 5% extra into the nhs you would be one of the first to say but with inflation in real terms they are not.

A bit more honesty from both sides and less of the pedantry would be nice

 

[BobKowalski]

Still interesting to see there is no attempt to make any real economic or business case for Brexit from Johnson. Other than a weekend of EU migrant bashing there has been nothing beyond ‘Get Brexit Done’ and even that is a lie.

CBI response to Johnson clear in that they want a close alignment with EU to ensure frictionless trade and supports our services sector. They also want future negotiations done properly with no more destabilising deadlines and unnecessary cliff edges. No chance of that happening. We are already locked into unrealistic deadlines and the EU knows it works from their perspective.

 

[mcfc1632]

The only one talking about purism and normal is you.

You're our very own Bluemoon Don Quixote, tilting at windmills, attacking imaginary enemies, living in a fantasy world entirely of your own making.

That is simply your 'invention'

Several of us on here have discussed the need for Labour to attract people like @blueinsa and myself and that Labour cannot achieve a GE win until they do - and you have basically told us that we are not worthy and to fuck off

So now we are being proven to be correct you are rewriting history - my gob is not at all smacked lol

 

[Len Rum]

They seem to be some state of 'collective denial'

It's as if they were to ever - just once - admit that they were plainly wrong (in this case that the EU would not renegotiate the EU and that Johnson's stance with even the risk of a No-Deal outcome resulted in them in fact doing so) - then their bubble would be burst and all would be lost.

There is no debating with them/explaining to them - it is a state of the utterly desperate denial of simple facts.

One last try:

1. Yes we all know that the Irish sea option was a previously offered stance - why the fuck do you keep repeating this?

2. Yes we all know that the 'whole UK' option was a May/Robbins solution - why the fuck do you keep repeating this?

There must have been much champagne drunk in Brussels that night when they were handed something - the unfettered backstop - that was much more valuable than what they had been seeking.

3. So the May deal became the EU's treasured outcome - at a stroke it would allow them unilateral control over the UK's key policies for many years to come - of course that became much more valuable and desirable to the EU than the Irish sea option. That is why they said that they would not reopen the WA - it provided a total remedy to any/all the risks that they see from a UK Brexit.

4. Against all the odds due to the machinations of the Westminster acolytes and the views of the key Remainers on here Johnson's stance with even the risk of a No-Deal outcome resulted in them in fact doing a renegotiation and giving up something that they had secured and moving back to a lesser outcome.

It matters not a single fuck if this 'new/old' position is something that had been considered before - the EU moved their position from the May deal which was far better for the EU. Removal of the poisonous unfettered backstop was a major climbdown by the EU/achievement for the UK.

I'm sure the EU were quaffing champagne when THE UK agreed to something MORE favourable to the EU than what they ( the EU) had proposed.
And as part of the subsequent negotiations with Johnson of course they said they wouldn't reopen the WA , for two reasons - first that's what anybody would do in a negotiation and second they couldn't see an alternative way forward because of the UK's red lines.
But then Johnson dropped his trousers, dropped the UK red line of no border in the Irish Sea and the EU agreed to revert to their original offer which admittedly was not as favourable to them as THE UK's foolish and over generous backstop proposal but was nevertheless acceptable
So by all means celebrate an internal Tory party victory of pulling back from something the Tories foolishly gave away and shouldn't have but don't claim it as a victory against the EU.
It makes you look silly and when Tory politicians do the same it makes the country look like a bigger laughing stock than we already are on the international stage.

 

[mcfc1632]

Correct, which is what most of the country wants,and he implemented more policies to help working families than Corbyn ever will. To be fair though he'd only have needed to introduce one good policy to have been more use to society than Corbyn with all his ideology will have been when we end up with Johnson again.

Correct - but the purists would rather hijack the LP and take it into some ideological wilderness for many decades - far from any position to make and implement policies

Such is the fervour of their 'purism' - like Corbyn it seems - they are content just to be protestors

 

[George Hannah]

Still interesting to see there is no attempt to make any real economic or business case for Brexit from Johnson. Other than a weekend of EU migrant bashing there has been nothing beyond ‘Get Brexit Done’ and even that is a lie..

Liam Halligan on Politics Live just talking about regionalizaion as a benefit of Brexit which is hardly mentioned by its proponents. Posted this related article on another thread from the Labour perspective -
Direct challenge to the party's fundamental policy direction in the Guardian today
For real change, Labour should ditch its top-down thinking

John Harris
Genuinely modern socialism would revolutionise Westminster and Whitehall and disperse power to local government
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...our-real-change-top-down-thinking-westminster

 

[journolud]

They seem to be some state of 'collective denial'

It's as if they were to ever - just once - admit that they were plainly wrong (in this case that the EU would not renegotiate the EU and that Johnson's stance with even the risk of a No-Deal outcome resulted in them in fact doing so) - then their bubble would be burst and all would be lost.

There is no debating with them/explaining to them - it is a state of the utterly desperate denial of simple facts.

One last try:

1. Yes we all know that the Irish sea option was a previously offered stance - why the fuck do you keep repeating this?

2. Yes we all know that the 'whole UK' option was a May/Robbins solution - why the fuck do you keep repeating this?

There must have been much champagne drunk in Brussels that night when they were handed something - the unfettered backstop - that was much more valuable than what they had been seeking.

3. So the May deal became the EU's treasured outcome - at a stroke it would allow them unilateral control over the UK's key policies for many years to come. Of course that became much more valuable and desirable to the EU than the Irish sea option and that is why they said that they would not reopen the WA - it provided a total remedy to any/all the main risks that they see from a UK Brexit.

4. Against all the odds due to the machinations of the Westminster acolytes and the views of the key Remainers on here, Johnson's stance with even the risk of a No-Deal outcome resulted in them in fact doing a renegotiation and giving up something that they had secured and moving back to a lesser outcome.

It matters not a single fuck if this 'new/old' position is something that had been considered before - the simple fact is that EU moved their position from the May deal which was far better for them and removed the poisonous unfettered backstop - and this was a major climbdown by the EU/achievement for the UK.

Can people not just be pleased at a good outcome for the UK? It does not matter is you support Remain or Leave - the unfettered backstop would have been ruinous for the UK

One last try you say. Well that’s something I suppose

 

[Fame Monster]

Real term increases do matter but its the % increases that makes sense its just common sense because that is how we measure inflation and that gives us a proper indicator of what money is going in. You are right putting money in isn't the only way of assessing how well the NHS is doing. All you have to do is look at the recent NHS report on waiting times to see that they are abysmal and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-50397856 Just not spending money because we don't think that they spend it wisely is a sad and pitiful excuse.

Here's something on health tourism 2016 but still relevant
https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-health-tourism-cost-nhs-billions

Real terms increases take account of inflation. The percentage increase that I think you're talking about also takes into account inflation but it mainly refers to the extent to which the NHS budget has increased from government to government. They've spent about 1% more (don't know if that's annual or not) which might not be enough but it's still an increase. My point wasn't to say, 'don't put more money into the NHS', my point was to say:

A. The NHS budget hasn't been cut (by most metrics)
B. We should simultaneously address where money is being wasted alongside potential budget increases

The health tourism link doesn't say anything about the costs of reclaiming money from foreign nationals costing more than it would save by the way. It actually concludes by saying the NHS, via the Department of Health, is inefficient at reclaiming costs back from foreign nationals using the service which, again, is something I think we should improve.

 

[BobKowalski]

Liam Halligan on Politics Live just talking about regionalizaion as a benefit of Brexit which is hardly mentioned by its proponents. Posted this related article on another thread from the Labour perspective -
Direct challenge to the party's fundamental policy direction in the Guardian today
For real change, Labour should ditch its top-down thinking

John Harris
Genuinely modern socialism would revolutionise Westminster and Whitehall and disperse power to local government
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...our-real-change-top-down-thinking-westminster

And none of this has to do with Brexit. How we organise ourselves politically is a purely domestic matter. Have we got to the point where we simply now invent things and claim it’s a benefit of Brexit? Great news lads. I now feed my cat premium cat food. Thank god Brexit gave me this opportunity.

I know we’re desperate but Christ let's not start mainlining this horseshit just yet.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Reflects a rising and ageing population - on average it costs twice as much to treat each 65+ year old as for each 30 year old.

That's as maybe. The question was where is all the tax revenue going? This is just one example

 

[Chippy_boy]

But that's called inflation and I am sure if you compared a price of a pint of beer you could produce a similar results. If you look at things as economist do then this paints a whole different picture.

More specifically in terms how our expenditure on healthcare compares to other countries (sorry I am shit at uploading pictures never works for me)
https://ibb.co/grchWhC

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...espendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29

When you put things into context with say US who spend £7,736 per person and people die because they don't have the right cover. Compared to £2,989 we pay which is free at point of service it non to shabby in that despite its chronic underfunding (through political choices) we have service that works for everyone.

https://ibb.co/Jd4LMzJ

As a % of GDP 9.6% again when compared to other G7 countries represents value for money. The US is a spending an eye watering 17.1% its frightening to imagine us ending up like them?

Inflation: no the graph is adjusted for inflation.

NHS spending has doubled in real terms (and much more than that in pound note terms) in the last 10 years. 10 years of austerity and we have still doubled NHS spending.

US costs: We're never implementing anything like that, full stop.

 

[BobKowalski]

Language is always interesting. Johnson on getting a deal done by 2020.

“I see absolutely no reason why we should not get it done in the time available.”

Now we all know this isn’t going to happen as we are proposing a trading relationship whose central premise is less trade and more trade barriers which is contrary to all other trade deals. This means it’s a one off and there will be a line by line scrutiny by the EU on every business sector and by the E27 to make sure they come out ahead of the game and this will take time and lots of it.

Johnson doesn’t actually promise that we will do it by 2020 he just sees no reason (now) why it should not get done which leaves it open to discover all sorts of reasons in the future why it will not get done.

A bit like leaving by Oct 31st deal or no deal. Johnson can say he will do it if he simply ignores that Parliament would not let him do it. No harm in repeating the same trick of ignoring the bleeding obvious until after you have won the election.

 

[BobKowalski]

Inflation: no the graph is adjusted for inflation.

NHS spending has doubled in real terms (and much more than that in pound note terms) in the last 10 years. 10 years of austerity and we have still doubled NHS spending.

US costs: We're never implementing anything like that, full stop.

It has? Are you saying we have doubled the amount spent on the NHS since 2010?

 

[BobKowalski]

Andrew Neil with the burn...

‘Boris Johnson tells CBI he’s “postponing” further cuts in corporation tax (from 19% to 17%) because this will save £6bn to spend on public services. Yet only this morning his Business Secretary was telling the BBC that previous cuts in CT had generated MORE revenues’