General Election - December 12th, 2019

[dave_blue12]

Just more lies

 

[ZenHalfTimeCrock]

I'll almost certainly be voting Labour, in spite of the fact that I'm not a supporter of Corbyn and am actually a capitalist (though I may not sound like one in what follows).

The reason for this is simple and pragmatic: chronic pain.

I'm reasonably okay right now, but eventually (within the next five years), I'll almost certainly need major surgery on a degenerative condition. I'll also possibly need it twice, not once, and will be in considerable discomfort beforehand.

Under a Tory administration I could be waiting forever to get it done.

But there's also another reason: the failure of both right wingers and previous supporters of New Labour to understand how world economic history since the late 1970's has unfolded, and the deleterious effects of decades of neoliberal economic policy on both developing and developed countries*.

They also don't even grasp that the macroeconomic policies they favour arguably helped to produce the migrancy crisis in the first place, in turn arousing those tribalistic sentiments instilled by hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary psychology that underpin support for right-wing demagogues and the parties they represent in many parts of the globe.

Some kind of alternative to hypercapitalism is needed. My solution would be a more regulated version of the present system combined with deliberative democracy, a version of democracy that would eliminate most of the lying that presently goes on.


*Applies to me too! I didn't figure this out until recently and it took a lot of reading of specialist, economic texts before the penny dropped. But it’s there in the writings of Ha Joon Chang, Manfred Steger, Ravi Roy, David Harvey, Matthieu Ricard, and many others. For the evolutionary psychology angle, Jonathan Haidt’s The Righteous Mind is the place to start.

 

[stonerblue]

I thought cutting tax increased the amount of tax taken?
I only think this because: Boris Johnson, one of the candidates to replace Theresa May as Conservative leader and prime minister, told party members in Darlington that cutting the rate of corporation tax always increased the amount of revenue raised.

Chippy Boy told me, several times.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Chippy Boy told me, several times.

As a blanket true-ism? No, I didn't. In specific circumstances, yes, which I may have told you about.

What is true is that raising taxes does not always generate the gains you might expect, and that is certainly true of taxing the very rich for example.

But you don't need me to remind you of this, since it's obvious as any idiot can see, and I'm sure you're not an idiot.

 

[George Hannah]

Well that was interesting. For all those who have dissed the idea that the EU has meant peace in Europe and (a) credit NATO for that and (b) are against a "European army"....If NATO is suffering "brain death" and Europe could not rely on the US honouring Article Five, what then for a European army?

The very same issue was being argued about in 1973, proponents of accession argued the USA could not be relied on to underwrite the cost of defending of Europe indefinitely. Not just an army btw , the deployment of air and sea forces is now provided for in the EU CSDP.

 

[Vic]

I'll almost certainly be voting Labour, in spite of the fact that I'm not a supporter of Corbyn and am actually a capitalist (though I may not sound like one in what follows).

The reason for this is simple and pragmatic: chronic pain.

I'm reasonably okay right now, but eventually (within the next five years), I'll almost certainly need major surgery on a degenerative condition. I'll also possibly need it twice, not once, and will be in considerable discomfort beforehand.

Under a Tory administration I could be waiting forever to get it done.

But there's also another reason: the failure of both right wingers and previous supporters of New Labour to understand how world economic history since the late 1970's has unfolded, and the deleterious effects of decades of neoliberal economic policy on both developing and developed countries*.

They also don't even grasp that the macroeconomic policies they favour arguably helped to produce the migrancy crisis in the first place, in turn arousing those tribalistic sentiments instilled by hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary psychology that underpin support for right-wing demagogues and the parties they represent in many parts of the globe.

Some kind of alternative to hypercapitalism is needed. My solution would be a more regulated version of the present system combined with deliberative democracy, a version of democracy that would eliminate most of the lying that presently goes on.


*Applies to me too! I didn't figure this out until recently and it took a lot of reading of specialist, economic texts before the penny dropped. But it’s there in the writings of Ha Joon Chang, Manfred Steger, Ravi Roy, David Harvey, Matthieu Ricard, and many others. For the evolutionary psychology angle, Jonathan Haidt’s The Righteous Mind is the place to start.

Yesterday's canvassing highlight was the Tory remainer couple likely to vote Labour. Putting it simply, "Our life was fine, why are we being put through this?"

Many trad Labour voters are "don't know", or admitting to being confused, but they won't vote to keep Liar Johnson in no. 10.

Another interesting chat with a woman just passing in the street. She's "of Jewish descent" and AS is an issue and I agreed the party hasn't handled it well. She's hoping for a hung Parliament and to "cut the head off the beast" (and she meant Johnson).

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Just more lies

I will tell you another lie

Corbyn announcing that 40% of children have not been to the dentist in the last year due to the cost of dentistry and so he will change this to allow free dental checks to help stop this.

yet any person under 18 currently qualifies for free dental checks.

 

[Vic]

The very same issue was being argued about in 1973, proponents of accession argued the USA could not be relied on to underwrite the cost of defending of Europe indefinitely. Not just an army brw , the deployment of air and sea forces is now provided for in the EU CSDP.

When Trump can call the EU a foe (and almost as bad as China only smaller) you need a plan B. I know, talking about trade wars, but real wars can start over trade.

 

[Vic]

I will tell you another lie

Corbyn announcing that 40% of children have not been to the dentist in the last year due to the cost of dentistry and so he will change this to allow free dental checks to help stop this.

yet any person under 18 currently qualifies for free dental checks.

It's not a lie. You're conflating two things. I assume Corbyn has the stats right that "over half of adults and 40% of children haven’t been to the dentist in the last year".

Children don't book their own dental appointments. If parents don't go, because of charges, they are less likely to take their children. The rationale behind the policy of free checks for all is that if you don’t go to the dentist for check-ups, you end up storing up problems in the long term. Over 100,000 are admitted to hospital every year because of problems with their teeth.

Of course the Express finds three people to say it's a bad idea and it's "voter fury" and "this will bankrupt Britain".

 

[George Hannah]

The Green Party are stealing Labour's clothes with a 'free money' pledge in the manifesto today.

 

[BobKowalski]

The Green Party are stealing Labour's clothes with a 'free money' pledge in the manifesto today.

And Tories. The choice in this election is between a party that has promised to increase spending to support public services and the economy and the Labour Party. The only party that is looking to maintain fiscal prudence is the LibDems.

Remember. Both main parties are spenders now.

 

[inbetween]

What are these fancy London ways of which you speak?

Having dinner at 7-30 instead of some time around 1pm?

Drinking London Pride instead of Boddingtons?

Voting ‘remain’?

You are talking of the London demographic specifically but that isn't what I am getting at, I am talking about politicians and their background and not the people of London.

Can someone like Emily Thornberry claim to know what is best for the North? She reckons so but then she is only informed by her leafy London based middle class background.

By leafy London based middle class background - I mean she is privately educated, inherits a title, sends her kids to selective schools and owns multiple properties. BUT, she is at the core of a party that pontificates and is instigating a class war against all of these.

It is the hypocritical nature of it all that really gets to people.

 

[BobKowalski]

It's not a lie. You're conflating two things. I assume Corbyn has the stats right that "over half of adults and 40% of children haven’t been to the dentist in the last year".

Children don't book their own dental appointments. If parents don't go, because of charges, they are less likely to take their children. The rationale behind the policy of free checks for all is that if you don’t go to the dentist for check-ups, you end up storing up problems in the long term. Over 100,000 are admitted to hospital every year because of problems with their teeth.

Of course the Express finds three people to say it's a bad idea and it's "voter fury" and "this will bankrupt Britain".

Brexit will be fine but free basic dental care will ‘bankrupt Britain’. Not sure how any democracy can survive this level of disinformation. The UK as an entity certainly won’t.

 

[Len Rum]

I thought about replying in detail - but as I said previously my comments were aimed at explanation to those open to objective assessment - not the deniers of truth/facts

Try this:
Woman called Mavis walks into a car dealership:
Mavis: That car on the forecourt for 10k, I'll give you 9k for it.
Salesman: Sorry Madam I can't accept that but you can have it for 9.5k.
Mavis: No way I'll only pay 9.7k.
Salesman:Err...ok then.

Next day the wife's husband (let's call him BoJo) storms into the dealership.
BoJo: That car my wife offered to pay 9.7k for -no way - we're only prepared to pay the 9.5k you originally offered it for.If you don't agree I'll walk away.
Salesman: Sorry sir we had a deal.
BoJo: If you don't agree I'll never buy any more cars from you.
Salesman: Oh OK sir you can have it for £9.5k.

BoJo to his mate mcfc1632 :you see what happens when you negotiate hard with car salesmen.
mcfc1632:yeah

Salesman's boss: Did we get 9.5k for that car?
Salesman: Yeah it was only worth 9k.
Boss: Great they were going to pay 9.7k at one stage weren't they?
Salesman: Yeah they nearly gave us more than we wanted but we got our.result at the end

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

It's not a lie. You're conflating two things. I assume Corbyn has the stats right that "over half of adults and 40% of children haven’t been to the dentist in the last year".

Children don't book their own dental appointments. If parents don't go, because of charges, they are less likely to take their children. The rationale behind the policy of free checks for all is that if you don’t go to the dentist for check-ups, you end up storing up problems in the long term. Over 100,000 are admitted to hospital every year because of problems with their teeth.

Of course the Express finds three people to say it's a bad idea and it's "voter fury" and "this will bankrupt Britain".

he is promising something that is already free. . He could have said we are extending fee dental checks to adults , at the moment all children get free healthcare but we want to extend it. He didn’t he was saying it was free to all and it was a new policy.

just like the secret barrister tweet it being a “lie” that the Tories said they were introducing a new law that says all adults who murder children will get life , when the law currently says child killers get life anyway

why is it a lie when the Tories announce something that already exists but when labour do it it’s ok and not a lie.

what the fuck has the express got to do with anything?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Try this:
Woman called Mavis walks into a car dealership:
Mavis: That car on the forecourt for 10k, I'll give you 9k for it.
Salesman: Sorry Madam I can't accept that but you can have it for 9.5k.
Mavis: No way I'll only pay 9.7k.
Salesman:Err...ok then.

Next day the wife's husband (let's call him BoJo) storms into the dealership.
BoJo: That car my wife offered to pay 9.7k for -no way - we're only prepared to pay the 9.5k you originally offered it for.If you don't agree I'll walk away.
Salesman: Sorry sir we had a deal.
BoJo: If you don't agree I'll never buy any more cars from you.
Salesman: Oh OK sir you can have it for £9.5k.

BoJo to his mate mcfc1632 :you see what happens when you negotiate hard with car salesmen.
mcfc1632:yeah

Salesman's boss: Did we get 9.5k for that car?
Salesman: Yeah it was only worth 9k.
Boss: Great they were going to pay 9.7k at one stage weren't they?
Salesman: Yeah they nearly gave us more than we wanted but we got our.result at the end

name that tune.

 

[George Hannah]

And Tories. The choice in this election is between a party that has promised to increase spending to support public services and the economy and the Labour Party. The only party that is looking to maintain fiscal prudence is the LibDems. Remember. Both main parties are spenders now.

Both main parties are promising to increase spending but Labour's plans are on a different scale. The IFS is one of the few reliable economic commentators and this BBC interview with Paul Johnson I posted from last week made the different order of Corbyn's current proposals clear.
3 mins 14 secs in https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000b8t1/politics-live-15112019

 

[Len Rum]

name that tune.

UK fought EU but EU won?

 

[dave_blue12]

I will tell you another lie

Corbyn announcing that 40% of children have not been to the dentist in the last year due to the cost of dentistry and so he will change this to allow free dental checks to help stop this.

yet any person under 18 currently qualifies for free dental checks.

Thanks. All lies should be called out.

These cunts treat us like fools thinking they can say anything and we'll swallow it.

 

[mcfc1632]

We all know the polls are notoriously volatile in their predictions, but if we assume they're correct, Labour
canvassers must be telling everyone who doesn't open the door wearing a Lenin cap and a Che Guevara Onesie
to fuck off.

And come the glorious 12th they will reap what they sow

and then...………….

blame every fucker but themselves