Another new Brexit thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ric
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
bluethrunthru said:
Read this from our local paper and understand exactly how Brexit meant local jobs were lost to foreign competition............though in your world I am sure it didn't

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/metro-contract-winners-make-commitment-17646110
Click to expand...
Hmmmmm

Your local paper explicitly says:

"Nexus had come under fire in advance of the contract award when it emerged that Hitachi - which has a train factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham - was unlikely to be the preferred bidder, despite being on the three-company shortlist."

Probably everyday, well not weekends, in the UK there are evaluation processes undertaken to determine the awarding of government contracts.

The procurement process will have often started - as set out in the EU imposed regulations - with the issue of an OJEU notice which will have - as required by the EU regulations - included the evaluation criteria to be used to determine selection of the winning bidder.

Very often the basis for selection is:

"The most economically advantageous tender (MEAT) criterion enables the contracting authority to take account of criteria that reflect qualitative, technical and sustainable aspects of the tender submission as well as price when reaching an award decision."

https://www.felp.ac.uk/content/most-economically-advantageous-tender-meat

and if there is any variance from the stated evaluation method and criteria the government is vulnerable to a challenge.

Such a process does allow for a weighting to be given to a range of factors - so it is not always a lowest price based decision - but great care is need to be demonstrably true to the published evaluation process

The very article you quote states clearly that the losing bidder decided to inflate their price - and hence lost.

This decision will likely be the outcome of such a process which will have been progresseing for some time and which is required to be conducted consistent with the aforementioned EU regulations

In short - in your desperation to find anti-Brexit / anti-Johnson scare-mongering / slagging off stories - you are demonstrating that you not only do not know the processes, but also that you do not bother to research before posting
 
Last edited:
mcfc1632 said:
Hmmmmm

Your local paper explicitly says:

"Nexus had come under fire in advance of the contract award when it emerged that Hitachi - which has a train factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham - was unlikely to be the preferred bidder, despite being on the three-company shortlist."

Probably everyday, well not weekends, in the UK there are evaluation processes undertaken to determine the awarding of government contracts.

The procurement process will have often started - as set out in the EU imposed regulations - with the issue of an OJEU notice which will have - as required by the EU regulations - included the evaluation criteria to be used to determine selection of the winning bidder.

Very often the basis for selection is:

"The most economically advantageous tender (MEAT) criterion enables the contracting authority to take account of criteria that reflect qualitative, technical and sustainable aspects of the tender submission as well as price when reaching an award decision."

https://www.felp.ac.uk/content/most-economically-advantageous-tender-meat

and if there is any variance from the stated evaluation method and criteria the government is vulnerable to a challenge.

Such a process does allow for a weighting to be given to a range of factors - so it is not always a lowest price based decision - but great care is need to be demonstrably true to the published evaluation process

The very article you quote states clearly that the losing bidder decided to inflate their price - and hence lost.

This decision will likely be the outcome of such a process which will have been progresseing for some time and which is required to be conducted consistent with the aforementioned EU regulations

In short - in your desperation to find anti-Brexit / anti-Johnson scare-mongering / slagging off stories - you are demonstrating that you not only do not know the processes, but also that you do not bother to research before posting
Click to expand...
I'm not sure why you missed out that the paper explained that Hitachi seemed out already because they factored in a "Brexit risk premium", apparently at the instigation of the Japanese government.

Now I don't know whether you have any genuine insight into what risks the Japanese have in mind. I thought it might be about fears of tariffs, but then I'd have thought that Hitachi's having their own factory in the UK got over that (but the Spanish and Swiss have yet to find out whether there will be import tariffs so they have an unquantifiable Brexit risk). Is it perhaps like Virgin Trains not liking the risks of bearing pension costs and seeing other companies bid for the West Coast line even with a likelihood that it's financially unsustainable? In this present case, which party to the contract will be paying any tariffs that may be applied post-transition that do not apply now? If it's the supplier, how marginal are the profits for the successful supplier? Perhaps currency fluctuations would be an issue but having the trains built here would mitigate that risk.

Now I'm guessing about this - I can't find anything more general about Japanese firms and Brexit risk - but I did see that when this came up previously the Tories were all free-market about it but they're now bleating.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/hitachi-metro-bid-under-threat-16947595.amp

For those who see only what they want to see in articles you shouldn't miss this bit:
Newcastle City Council leader Nick Forbes tweeted: “I think this has only happened because of the Prime Minister’s cavalier approach to Brexit negotiations, and subsequent warnings from the Japanese Government to Japanese companies to build a Brexit risk premium into any tender costs for public procurement.”
 
Last edited:
mcfc1632 said:
Johnson has a strong enough position to do what the fuck he wants - and cannot be forced to stay in line with traditional Tory 'values'

The harder left Labour supporters should wake up and be proper worried as I absolutely see him taking action in the next few years to convince a lot of the traditional (but centrist) Labour voters (like me) that took a punt on him in December that they were right to do so - with a lot more from the 'Red Wall' constituencies following.

Especially if, as I expect, Labour entrench away from the centre with RLB.

Even with Starmer I cannot see what Labour can do about it if Johnson does make the moves that I expect - they have forgotten it seems the need to be in power to make changes that affect people and get you noticed. They have become dependent on their only chance of winning being public dissatisfaction with a (too) far-right Conservative Party alienating the centre-left ground which can be hoovered up - like Blair did - I cannot see that happening.

There are a lot of posters on here that are going to spend the next 10 years whinging on in their increasing frustration, impotence and isolation - I have not been a fan of Johnson - and I remain to be convinced - but I think that he and in particular his advisors, will not fail to see the easy opportunity in front of them.

Anyway that is more for the Conservative and/or Labour Party threads
Click to expand...

This is very true.

Johnson is positioning himself to take the centrist vote too and if it’s another hard left Labour leader, they’ve absolutely had it.

What it means though is yet another decade of liberal social policy and that’s a sad thing for me.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ryan Air making its unfair State Aid case against the Govt over its Flybe bailout. Spot the number of times they shoehorn the word ‘billionaires’ along with ‘mates’ and ‘pals’ into this open letter to the Chancellor.

Note: EU State Aid rules apply under the WA for NI businesses or any UK business that intersects with NI even if we exit transition without a deal.

Click to expand...


As i quoted on another thread ..... Johnson returns from an extended holiday in Bransons villa on Mustique , Cyrus capital donate £1.7 million to the Tory party .... and all of a sudden the CONservatives and HMRC give Flybe time to pay their tax bill.



Stinks ........
 
A mildly interesting sidenote today will be how whatever is left of the Brexit Party votes in the European Parliament. The last I heard was that Farage will be instructing his MEPs to vote against approving the withdrawal agreement. There will then be the bizarre situation in which the overwhelming majority vote for it but with the Brexit Party effectively voting for the UK not to leave the EU.
 
Chippy_boy said:
There's ideology and then there's practicality and pragmatism. Businesses fail for all sorts of reasons and taking a cold "non-interventionist" approach whilst ideologically sound, may be practically speaking, silly.

Richard Branson nearly went bust at least once and was "lucky" to have survived. Do we really want to put 1000's of people out of work due to bad luck, when for the sake of some transitional relief the jobs can be saved?
Click to expand...

Chippy_boy said:
Well you'd be wrong then.

Winding a company up and getting 1/10th of your money back, or less, is definitely not preferrable to allowing a bit longer to pay a debt back. Which is why such extensions are granted all the time.

Life 101 really.

And who said they were "consistently failing", not me. Was it their main - disgruntled - competitor? I'm guessing it was.

Glad you don't give a toss.
Click to expand...


The ex employees of Thomas Cook are holding on line 1
 
Vic said:
I'm not sure why you missed out that the paper explained that Hitachi seemed out already because they factored in a "Brexit risk premium", apparently at the instigation of the Japanese government.

Now I don't know whether you have any genuine insight into what risks the Japanese have in mind. I thought it might be about fears of tariffs, but then I'd have thought that Hitachi's having their own factory in the UK got over that (but the Spanish and Swiss have yet to find out whether there will be import tariffs so they have an unquantifiable Brexit risk). Is it perhaps like Virgin Trains not liking the risks of bearing pension costs and seeing other companies bid for the West Coast line even with a likelihood that it's financially unsustainable? In this present case, which party to the contract will be paying any tariffs that may be applied post-transition that do not apply now? If it's the supplier, how marginal are the profits for the successful supplier? Perhaps currency fluctuations would be an issue but having the trains built here would mitigate that risk.

Now I'm guessing about this - I can't find anything more general about Japanese firms and Brexit risk - but I did see that when this came up previously the Tories were all free-market about it but they're now bleating.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/hitachi-metro-bid-under-threat-16947595.amp

For those who see only what they want to see in articles you shouldn't miss this bit:
Newcastle City Council leader Nick Forbes tweeted: “I think this has only happened because of the Prime Minister’s cavalier approach to Brexit negotiations, and subsequent warnings from the Japanese Government to Japanese companies to build a Brexit risk premium into any tender costs for public procurement.”
Click to expand...


This may be it.....

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...is-johnson-japanese-trade-deal-chance-1375432


Before a trade deal can be agreed with Japan they need to understand the deal between the UK and the Eu

“It is possible [to agree a deal within the year] but Japan will need to know what kind of relationship we will have with the EU, as much of the business they do with us is linked to the EU. The difficulty of accessing the EU from the UK will be a key consideration,” Prof Menon said.

“All of these trade deals are interlinked,” he added.
 
Vic said:
I'm not sure why you missed out that the paper explained that Hitachi seemed out already because they factored in a "Brexit risk premium", apparently at the instigation of the Japanese government.

Now I don't know whether you have any genuine insight into what risks the Japanese have in mind. I thought it might be about fears of tariffs, but then I'd have thought that Hitachi's having their own factory in the UK got over that (but the Spanish and Swiss have yet to find out whether there will be import tariffs so they have an unquantifiable Brexit risk). Is it perhaps like Virgin Trains not liking the risks of bearing pension costs and seeing other companies bid for the West Coast line even with a likelihood that it's financially unsustainable? In this present case, which party to the contract will be paying any tariffs that may be applied post-transition that do not apply now? If it's the supplier, how marginal are the profits for the successful supplier? Perhaps currency fluctuations would be an issue but having the trains built here would mitigate that risk.

Now I'm guessing about this - I can't find anything more general about Japanese firms and Brexit risk - but I did see that when this came up previously the Tories were all free-market about it but they're now bleating.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/hitachi-metro-bid-under-threat-16947595.amp

For those who see only what they want to see in articles you shouldn't miss this bit:
Newcastle City Council leader Nick Forbes tweeted: “I think this has only happened because of the Prime Minister’s cavalier approach to Brexit negotiations, and subsequent warnings from the Japanese Government to Japanese companies to build a Brexit risk premium into any tender costs for public procurement.”
Click to expand...
Now it is you that are showing the desperation of the anti-Brexit brigade. I had no need to post more - people can read - I was just posting the facts.

There were three companies left at the evaluation stage - the award went as it did because one of the companies chose to inflate their price due to their risk based assessment - others did not. So, it is a simple fact that the reason that Hitachi did not win is because their government - probably a good while ago - adopted a policy of such inflating prices for UK government related bids. This may have been due to the level of scare-mongering and confusion prevailing at Westminster by the anti-Brexit sycophants or not - but that policy is likely to have been adopted long before Johnson became PM.

Such bids are not inexpensive to run and companies that enter them will be aware of the constraints of the EU procurement regulations and known that the MEAT based evaluation methodology would lead to the production of a financial model that would be key to the evaluation. They would also have known the extent to which factors, such as provision of local sourcing, would be weighted. The process would also reflect the assessment of the procuring authority's own professional advisors with regard to of such risks as Brexit.

Having experience of managing such procurements - from both the bidder and procuring authority position - the steps would have been clear. If Hitachi was constrained by policies of the Japanese government, then the logical path should have been that it's own governance functions and qualification processes should have seen them choose to qualify out of the procurement at an earlier stage to save bid costs.

The bottom line and the simple facts are that Hitachi unduly loaded their risk appraisal above that, not only of the other bidders, but also the financial specialists that would have been supporting the procuring authority.

These are the facts of managing such procurements and if you can demonstrate that you have appropriate experience I would be happy to debate them further with you.

The rest of your post is essentially more desperate bleating.

The para commencing with "Now I don't know whether you have....." is just irrelevant rambling and not one word of it has anything to do with the process of procurement that would have been followed. You mention my knowledge level - FWIW - during the period since June 2016 I have provided advice and reviewed the procurement approaches of > 15 major government procurements, including infrastructure programmes. There are a number of stakeholders in play here - and Japanese government policy being only one factor amongst many. The stuff about Virgin... is wholly irrelevant.

Your comments about what a Labour councillor, who will not have been anywhere near the management of the core procurement process, are also wholly irrelevant and a) sound like simple anti-Johnson bluster - you may as well have posted something from @bellbuzzer - Johnson will also have not been affecting the evaluation process - and b) that even you have more understanding of how these things work than the councillor.
 
Last edited:
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
This may be it.....

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/b...is-johnson-japanese-trade-deal-chance-1375432


Before a trade deal can be agreed with Japan they need to understand the deal between the UK and the Eu

“It is possible [to agree a deal within the year] but Japan will need to know what kind of relationship we will have with the EU, as much of the business they do with us is linked to the EU. The difficulty of accessing the EU from the UK will be a key consideration,” Prof Menon said.

“All of these trade deals are interlinked,” he added.
Click to expand...
Nope - absolutely nothing to do with the determination of a professionally managed evaluation process

That will just be you trawling the internet and posting irrelevant links
 
mcfc1632 said:
Nope - absolutely nothing to do with the determination of a professionally managed evaluation process

That will just be you trawling the internet and posting irrelevant links
Click to expand...


What would these 'foreigners'' know , after all they have only built the third largest economy in the world and invested £46 billion plus in the uk with certainty of Eu access. In 2016 they warned that they would transfer Euro HQs from the UK if Brexit went through.

Hers another irrelevant link for you

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Asian-companies-face-tough-calls-on-Brexit-after-Johnson-s-UK-win
 
mcfc1632 said:
Now it is you that are showing the desperation of the anti-Brexit brigade. I had no need to post more - people can read - I was just posting the facts.

There were three companies left at the evaluation stage - the award went as it did because one of the companies chose to inflate their price due to their risk based assessment - others did not. So, it is a simple fact that the reason that Hitachi did not win is because their government - probably a good while ago - adopted a policy of such inflating prices for UK government related bids. This may have been due to the level of scare-mongering and confusion prevailing at Westminster by the anti-Brexit sycophants or not - but that policy is likely to have been adopted long before Johnson became PM.

Such bids are not inexpensive to run and companies that enter them will be aware of the constraints of the EU procurement regulations and known that the MEAT based evaluation methodology would lead to the production of a financial model that would be key to the evaluation. They would also have known the extent to which factors, such as provision of local sourcing, would be weighted. The process would also reflect the assessment of the procuring authority's own professional advisors with regard to of such risks as Brexit.

Having experience of managing such procurements - from both the bidder and procuring authority position - the steps would have been clear. If Hitachi was constrained by policies of the Japanese government, then the logical path should have been that it's own governance functions and qualification processes should have seen them choose to qualify out of the procurement at an earlier stage to save bid costs.

The bottom line and the simple facts are that Hitachi unduly loaded their risk appraisal above that, not only of the other bidders, but also the financial specialists that would have been supporting the procuring authority.

These are the facts of managing such procurements and if you can demonstrate that you have appropriate experience I would be happy to debate them further with you.

The rest of your post is essentially more desperate bleating.

The para commencing with "Now I don't know whether you have....." is just irrelevant rambling and not one word of it has anything to do with the process of procurement that would have been followed. You mention my knowledge level - FWIW - during the period since June 2016 I have provided advice and reviewed the procurement approaches of > 15 government procurements, including infrastructure programmes. There are a number of stakeholders in play here - and Japanese government policy being only one factor amongst many. The stuff about Virgin... is wholly irrelevant.

Your comments about what a Labour councillor, who will not have been anywhere near the management of the core procurement process, are also wholly irrelevant and a) sound like simple anti-Johnson bluster - you may as well have posted something from @bellbuzzer - Johnson will also have not been affecting the evaluation process - and b) that even you have more understanding of how these things work than the councillor.
Click to expand...
Load of guff about tendering and procurement but didn't address what I asked about what were the Brexit risks that the Japanese had in mind.

How can you possibly say that they unduly loaded their risk appraisal? If they'd asked you I've no doubt you'd have minimised any risks from Brexit but maybe they asked people who don't bring a pro-Brexit bias to their advice.

I know how you work. Loads of words about stuff in which you claim expertise and assume no-one else has a clue about, but ignore any genuine question about stuff that you don't have a clue about.

If you think you know they've unduly loaded their risks, you must know what the Brexit risks are that they've unduly loaded. Tell us, O wise one.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
As i quoted on another thread ..... Johnson returns from an extended holiday in Bransons villa on Mustique , Cyrus capital donate £1.7 million to the Tory party .... and all of a sudden the CONservatives and HMRC give Flybe time to pay their tax bill.



Stinks ........
Click to expand...
It seems the Nolan principles don't apply to Johnson or his government. (Have we heard the last of his way of handing out mayoral contracts? "If you sleep with me I'll give you one.")
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
What would these 'foreigners'' know , after all they have only built the third largest economy in the world and invested £46 billion plus in the uk with certainty of Eu access. In 2016 they warned that they would transfer Euro HQs from the UK if Brexit went through.

Hers another irrelevant link for you

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Asian-companies-face-tough-calls-on-Brexit-after-Johnson-s-UK-win
Click to expand...
But - your comments there - are utterly irrelevant again.

Just what the fuck as the size of the Japanese economy got to do with a specific procurement evaluation process? The answer is utterly fuck all.

Just what the fuck has any statements from Japan in 2016 got to do with a specific procurement evaluation process in 2019/20? The answer is utterly fuck all - this one especially as they followed through to the end of the procurement and did not simply withdraw.

These processes are formally managed - all this bluster from you guys is just irrelevant bollocks to the award of contract decision of this procurement. If you cannot see this - it can only because you do not know how these things work.

'IMO' - the issue for you is that you can prattle on all you like, posting link after link as your scour the internet, but...….

When there is actually some relevance to what you post it will likely be missed amongst all the other bollocks you post - I am sure that most people, other than anti-Brexit cheerleaders, generally do not bother to click on the links that you post.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top