Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
Thanks - I did mean the EU - or perhaps I was looking to the consequences of a full implementation of an eventual version of Brexit that frees the UK from many constraints, including State-Aid rules;-)

And.......

If being free of State-Aid rules is one of (what should be) many pre-determined outcomes of Leaving the EU - as it surely should be - then that is what needs to be planned and its achievement managed in pre-determined stages.

I have been clear that, despite the removal of the ruinous unfettered Back-Stop, this WA is still largely the product of May's / Robbins utter incompetence and, accordingly, the UK starts 2020 in a worst position than if starting afresh.

Good management of this issue by the UK would be clear on the pre-determined outcome and the stages to achieve that - including the timing and consequences of hard decisions (what needs to be broken if necessary) to secure that outcome or at least as close to it as possible - back again to the achievement of ideal, realistic and fallback negotiating positions.

As we have discussed before, the EU on the other hand, will be preparing likewise to secure the UK wrapped up in as many EU controlled, including arbitration by the ECJ, constraints as possible.

The main difference between our views is that you seem to take and welcome it as a given that the EU will secure all they/you wish for - I hope for some, previously sadly lacking, professionalism from the UK
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That's a tough 'aul read that is!
 
mcfc1632 said:
Thanks - I did mean the EU - or perhaps I was looking to the consequences of a full implementation of an eventual version of Brexit that frees the UK from many constraints, including State-Aid rules;-)

And.......

If being free of State-Aid rules is one of (what should be) many pre-determined outcomes of Leaving the EU - as it surely should be - then that is what needs to be planned and its achievement managed in pre-determined stages.

I have been clear that, despite the removal of the ruinous unfettered Back-Stop, this WA is still largely the product of May's / Robbins utter incompetence and, accordingly, the UK starts 2020 in a worst position than if starting afresh.

Good management of this issue by the UK would be clear on the pre-determined outcome and the stages to achieve that - including the timing and consequences of hard decisions (what needs to be broken if necessary) to secure that outcome or at least as close to it as possible - back again to the achievement of ideal, realistic and fallback negotiating positions.

As we have discussed before, the EU on the other hand, will be preparing likewise to secure the UK wrapped up in as many EU controlled, including arbitration by the ECJ, constraints as possible.

The main difference between our views is that you seem to take and welcome it as a given that the EU will secure all they/you wish for - I hope for some, previously sadly lacking, professionalism from the UK
Click to expand...

The UK may look to break free of EU state aid rules but the reality is that we partly enshrined those rules in a treaty and it would be fanciful to think that any future deal that follows will roll back this provision and certainly not while NI is in the EU economic sphere.

And yes I expect the EU to craft a framework through which they ‘manage the UK’. And yes I expect us to bitch and moan and then eventually sign up to it.

As with the Huawei decision today, which is in line with the EU decision, our interests invariably align with Europe and Europe is the EU. The only difference is that we will no longer have a seat at the top table where decisions and policy are made.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ryan Air making its unfair State Aid case against the Govt over its Flybe bailout. Spot the number of times they shoehorn the word ‘billionaires’ along with ‘mates’ and ‘pals’ into this open letter to the Chancellor.

Note: EU State Aid rules apply under the WA for NI businesses or any UK business that intersects with NI even if we exit transition without a deal.

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Some pretty funny points in that letter, don't like Ryanair but I laughed.
 
BobKowalski said:
Ryan Air making its unfair State Aid case against the Govt over its Flybe bailout. Spot the number of times they shoehorn the word ‘billionaires’ along with ‘mates’ and ‘pals’ into this open letter to the Chancellor.

Note: EU State Aid rules apply under the WA for NI businesses or any UK business that intersects with NI even if we exit transition without a deal.

Click to expand...

What an embarrassing letter.

Factually inaccurate and basically just whinging. What a complete tool. "My competitor hasn't gone bust. boo hoo hoo, poor me".

Remind me to avoid flying Ryanair wherever possible (a good policy if ever there was one, btw).

On a different note, the government really is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't in these matters isn't it. Is there anyone who can seriously claim that the Labour opposition would not have been up in arms had the government just let FlyBe go bust, with the corresponding loss of jobs?
 
Chippy_boy said:
What an embarrassing letter.

Factually inaccurate and basically just whinging. What a complete tool. "My competitor hasn't gone bust. boo hoo hoo, poor me".

Remind me to avoid flying Ryanair wherever possible (a good policy if ever there was one, btw).

On a different note, the government really is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't in these matters isn't it. Is there anyone who can seriously claim that the Labour opposition would not have been up in arms had the government just let FlyBe go bust, with the corresponding loss of jobs?
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Labour were saying the government shouldn’t have let Thomas Cook go bust.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Precisely.

Corbyn would re-open the mines if he had his way.
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My view is that whilst it’s unfortunate for employees, the government shouldn’t bail companies out as a general policy.

Someone will fill the gap, if there is a need in the market.
 
Ban-jani said:
My view is that whilst it’s unfortunate for employees, the government shouldn’t bail companies out as a general policy.

Someone will fill the gap, if there is a need in the market.
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As a general rule yes, I agree. But there can always be exceptions where either its in the national interest, or perhaps there's some short term problem which the government can help overcome if there's significant gain - like 1000's of jobs being saved and millions of pounds in unemployment benefits being saved. For structurally unprofitable businesses, throwing good money after bad, then obviously there's no point. A sense of pragmatism should surely apply?
 
Chippy_boy said:
As a general rule yes, I agree. But there can always be exceptions where either its in the national interest, or perhaps there's some short term problem which the government can help overcome if there's significant gain - like 1000's of jobs being saved and millions of pounds in unemployment benefits being saved. For structurally unprofitable businesses, throwing good money after bad, then obviously there's no point. A sense of pragmatism should surely apply?
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I agree with every word.

I honestly don’t really have a clue what the case is with Flybe. Is it worth it or not?
 
Ban-jani said:
My view is that whilst it’s unfortunate for employees, the government shouldn’t bail companies out as a general policy.

Someone will fill the gap, if there is a need in the market.
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If you preach the free market ideals like fiscal conservatism does, then bailing out a failing company doesn't make sense and goes against the free market ideology
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
If you preach the free market ideals like fiscal conservatism does, then bailing out a failing company doesn't make sense and goes against the free market ideology
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My economic views are moderate. I’m in favour of a competitive market in the private sector but with government still intervening and regulating in places.

I also support a big safety net for those that fall on hard times and the government bringing us back to a situation where one adult can support whole household but that’s another debate.
 
Ban-jani said:
My economic views are moderate. I’m in favour of a competitive market in the private sector but with government still intervening and regulating in places.

I also support a big safety net for those that fall on hard times and the government bringing us back to a situation where one adult can support whole household but that’s another debate.
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I was more aiming at the Tories rather than your views.

From an economics view I'm not too dissimilar from you, probably slightly further left but not that dissimilar
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
I was more aiming at the Tories rather than your views.

From an economics view I'm not too dissimilar from you, probably slightly further left but not that dissimilar
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Oh fair enough. The Tories now aren’t as right wing economically as people think, they’re a world away from Cameron.

They’re also centre left socially, but that’s another argument.
 
Ban-jani said:
I agree with every word.

I honestly don’t really have a clue what the case is with Flybe. Is it worth it or not?
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Bit of one, bit of the other, I think.

It seems to be the main operator out of some regional airports - including Belfast, I think I heard (correct me if this is wrong) - which would become unviable without them. The image created by that would be awful in many ways (jobs, access, perceived cutting adrift of regions, etc).

Has the government given a reason for assisting? I can't remember what it was, if they have. It was inevitable that other airlines would demand the same treatment.
 
aguerrrroooooooooooo said:
If you preach the free market ideals like fiscal conservatism does, then bailing out a failing company doesn't make sense and goes against the free market ideology
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There's ideology and then there's practicality and pragmatism. Businesses fail for all sorts of reasons and taking a cold "non-interventionist" approach whilst ideologically sound, may be practically speaking, silly.

Richard Branson nearly went bust at least once and was "lucky" to have survived. Do we really want to put 1000's of people out of work due to bad luck, when for the sake of some transitional relief the jobs can be saved?
 
bluejon said:
Priti Patel is centre left? Interesting.
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No, Patel definitely isn’t I agree.

She’s the cabinet member that isn’t apart of the modern liberal movement. Johnson goes which way the wind blows so we’ll see but the Tory party generally cease to be proper conservatives.
 
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