Another new Brexit thread

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mcfc1632 said:
No surprise to me - indeed the opposite.

In that post I was just commenting on the content of Speeches from both the ideologues and the sceptics.

I have posted many times that it has been the intention of the architects of the EU to achieve the superstate - I have commented on that intent from Monnet onwards.

Go back 3 years and most of the pro-Remain posters were calling me a fantasist - yet you were aware of the truth of the intended direction - as I think also were some of those that were decrying what I posted as they were denying the opportunity to debate the inconvenient truths - as is their wont

But what has always been the intention of the ideologues was not what was committed to by the population of the UK in the initial referendum.

I became more and more outraged as we saw the herding strategy of the ideologues - intent to realise their dream incrementally, treaty by treaty, without letting something so crass as 'the will of the people' interfere or, if possible not even be tested.

Where referenda caused setbacks these were overturned through either 2nd votes being secured or the treaties being rebadged - Lisbon.

As generations ticked by this became more and more easy to achieve as 'local' governments became run by EU sycophants - we saw that clearly in the UK as politicians were duplicitous enough to win majorities on the strength of promises to hold a vote on key treaties only to then renege on such promises once in No. 10.

No - the lack of democracy at the heart of the EU has been clear to me for a very long time - you may have been OK with their destination - I most certainly was not
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Well put. With Brexit, the brakes on progress to the super state will be off. I am/was a sceptical remainer. Naively, I thought that a strong UK gov could marshall support for putting democracy at the heart of the EU. Wrong! The fault lines are so great, that the EU will run into serious political trouble eventually. While certain countries are net beneficiaries, they will tow the line, but eventually they will break ranks. Poland, Greece, Austria, and Hungary have survived encounters with the EU steamroller (I nearly said jackboot) but the arrogance at the centre will overreach at some point. They came close to disaster with the launch of the orphan Euro: you really cannot launch a currency with no central bank to regulate it. The launch was entirely political; they believed the Euro would do for Europe what the dollar did for the US in binding the states to a single entity. All the stated rules for membership were junked to smooth its passage.
I have been disappointed that remainers have argued almost exclusively on the basis of economics and ignored the elephant in the room....it's politics, politics, politics.
 
I watched a so called debate yesterday with MEP's who dont like the EU given 60 seconds to speak and the mic turned off with a president clearly not giving a fuck, hiding behind the rule book whilst the usual star names of the EU given several minutes, allowed to over run by considerable amounts and given standing ovations.

Flags are against the rules but then so to is signing but lets just ignore that.

Thank fuck we are out of it, they can keep their half n half scarves and roll them out again when the next member country leaves.
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
For me the most telling was the MEP who said that (paraphrasing) "this house needs to come together to ensure 'brexit' can never be discussed in this house again".

Which I took to mean that they would make changes to EU laws to ensure it becomes even more diffcult for any other member to be able to opt out or leave the EU in the future.

A bit disconcerting, but not unexpected from this current EU mindset.
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The next treaty I am sure will include all sorts of 'features' to prevent democracy being enacted again
 
Vic said:
Third hand from a friend of a relative...

"I sail overnight from a country in the EU on Friday to another country that's in the EU. I will arrive the following morning in an EU country, having left from a non-EU country."
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And?
 
BobKowalski said:
I’m fully on board with the EU superstate albeit I think it will be more of a loosely held together federated province than a State. Not sure what our status with them will be though. An uneasy one I guess. With lots of moaning about the EU and how it still won’t do what we want. How do you live next door to a ‘superstate’ that you have no influence or say over? Tricky one.
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A loose federation is not on the cards. That is the equivalent of a two speed Europe at the heart of a argument between France and Germany again.
As for living next to a super state, Canada manages.
 
mcfc1632 said:
No surprise to me - indeed the opposite.

In that post I was just commenting on the content of Speeches from both the ideologues and the sceptics.

I have posted many times that it has been the intention of the architects of the EU to achieve the superstate - I have commented on that intent from Monnet onwards.

Go back 3 years and most of the pro-Remain posters were calling me a fantasist - yet you were aware of the truth of the intended direction - as I think also were some of those that were decrying what I posted as they were denying the opportunity to debate the inconvenient truths - as is their wont

But what has always been the intention of the ideologues was not what was committed to by the population of the UK in the initial referendum.

I became more and more outraged as we saw the herding strategy of the ideologues - intent to realise their dream incrementally, treaty by treaty, without letting something so crass as 'the will of the people' interfere or, if possible not even be tested.

Where referenda caused setbacks these were overturned through either 2nd votes being secured or the treaties being rebadged - Lisbon.

As generations ticked by this became more and more easy to achieve as 'local' governments became run by EU sycophants - we saw that clearly in the UK as politicians were duplicitous enough to win majorities on the strength of promises to hold a vote on key treaties only to then renege on such promises once in No. 10.

No - the lack of democracy at the heart of the EU has been clear to me for a very long time - you may have been OK with their destination - I most certainly was not
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What lack of democracy? I thought they just voted to let us leave.
 
KS55 said:
Well put. With Brexit, the brakes on progress to the super state will be off....
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No, they won't. The brakes are that very few of the EU member states want anything like a federal superstate. It was a Brexit Fear Project.
 
BobKowalski said:
I’m fully on board with the EU superstate albeit I think it will be more of a loosely held together federated province than a State. Not sure what our status with them will be though. An uneasy one I guess. With lots of moaning about the EU and how it still won’t do what we want. How do you live next door to a ‘superstate’ that you have no influence or say over? Tricky one.
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The point is though that we - the UK population - have not voted to be part of an EU superstate

We - the UK electorate - have been promised to have a vote on treaties that advance that destination - and have been lied to

We - the UK electorate - when eventually given the option to vote have rejected that direction.

It will be interesting to see the revisionism on here - when I was making such posts years ago pointing out the remorseless and unavoidable destination of the EU I was told that I was in fantasy land

Now it is - yeah we knew all that and supported it....

IMO - some proper bollocks was posted by Remainers then - and there continues to be a similar level now - just different flavour
 
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KS55 said:
A loose federation is not on the cards. That is the equivalent of a two speed Europe at the heart of a argument between France and Germany again.
As for living next to a super state, Canada manages.
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It’s pretty much a loose federation already given the EU manages certain competences on behalf of all member states. The EU now has a dedicated Foreign Minister, Fontex is operational as is the public prosecutors office. The EU Parliament gets more bolshy by the year and that may accelerate once they shed the deadwood of UK MEPs the majority of whom where there to make arses of themselves in the hope of getting on the telly.

As for Canada it manages like Switzerland and Norway manage and they manage by accommodating and fitting in, and around, the US/EU. All of them are shaped by the gravity of their more dominant neighbours. Geography is a bitch and all that.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Buried under the Labour money tree.
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Chippy_boy said:
And "Utter fucking madness" was the term used to describe Labour's ludicrous spending plans. Perhaps you missed it? The electorate didn't.
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Not really the thread for it but..........

Labours manifesto costed at £75 billion ....... madness / unaffordable!!!!


Overspend on HS2 due to Tory negligence at £106 billion ......... Lets do it !!!!
 
mcfc1632 said:
The point is though that we - the UK population - have not voted to be part of an EU superstate

We - the UK electorate - have been promised to have a vote on treaties that advance that destination - and have been lied to

We - the UK electorate - when eventually given the option to vote have rejected that direction.

It will be interested to see the revisionism on here - when I was making such post pointing out the remorseless and unavoidable destination of the EU I was told that I was in fantasy land

Now it is - yeah we knew all that and supported it....

IMO - some proper bollocks was posted by Remainers then - and there continues to be similar level now - just different flavour
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Well it is hardly a remorseless and unavoidable destination. The EU is more like a coach full of unruly passengers all hurling conflicting advice at the driver as it meanders erratically across the countryside.

Also not all countries of the UK agree to this rejection but would rather embrace and support the path to greater unity and cooperation with our near neighbours. Are we going to deny them their democratic right?
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Not really the thread for it but..........

Labours manifesto costed at £75 billion ....... madness / unaffordable!!!!


Overspend on HS2 due to Tory negligence at £106 billion ......... Lets do it !!!!
Click to expand...
I think you misunderstand the word "costed". Amongst the other mistakes above.

Costed does not mean a spreadsheet with random figures that add up. Not that they even did.
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
Not really the thread for it but..........

Labours manifesto costed at £75 billion ....... madness / unaffordable!!!!


Overspend on HS2 due to Tory negligence at £106 billion ......... Lets do it !!!!
Click to expand...

I will show my arse in Burton's window that white elephant comes in at £106 billion double it and add some more but hey what do we commies know is in not better to piss money down the drain on something new and shiny for the party faithful than actually help real people out.
 
Vic said:
No, they won't. The brakes are that very few of the EU member states want anything like a federal superstate. It was a Brexit Fear Project.
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Well we know what it is now, but the question is what the end point is.
I worked there for three years and all the movers and shakers were convinced that a superstate was the terminus. Obvs, some of the smaller countries are opposed, fearing French and German dominance. Coincidently, France is currently engaged in telling Poland how to appoint judges.
To reduce the idea of a single unified state, which has been discussed at least from c18th, to an item of Brexit is bonkers.
 
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