Spurs thread 2019/20

[Gazza]

Isn't it odd how Spurs fans think Bernado was hard done to now they have a similar problem on their hands, I don't remember much sympathy at the time.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Go on, then, tell me......

What, specifically, was racist about the video?

At what point did Alli state or imply the inferiority of another race? At what point did he refer to another race pejoratively? At what point did he express hatred for or intolerance of another race? At what point did he attribute unique and offensive physical, mental, linguistic or behavioural characteristics to another race?

He implied that another race of people might be diseased and we've got to wash our hands around them. Just for comparison, let's imagine someone did a similar thing with a black person saying "Careful you don't catch HIV" because the HIV crisis in Africa had been in the news lately (presumably he didn't know that the man was Chinese, just that he looked Chinese). It's textbook racism. Which isn't to say that he deserves to be hung, drawn and quartered for it or that he's actually a racist. I'm sure we've all told a racially insensitive joke one time or another, and it's obvious that he's joking. I'm not a fan of people overreacting to a clear joke told once followed by an immediate apology. Like with Bernardo, I don't think that should result in sanctions on the pitch, but the FA have set a precedent now, so he will almost certainly get a match ban, which of course is only fair since our player had the same.

 

[tonea2003]

Good old race card, thrown around by middle aged white people who decides what's racist and what's not.

Bernado and Alli, Two lads having a joke. Shit my inbox fills up with memes daily with this Corona bollocks.

Anyway, im sure Alli and Silva called each other tonight about their right wing extremism and plotted to wipe out some ethnic minorities, the rotten racists.

Gotta love the faux outrage

totally agree with everything you say, but the precedent has been set

 

[JimB]

The point here is the response provoked by Bernardo's tweet to his friend about his friend. That's what gets posters hot under the collar. That was to his friend and he put it on a public forum. Mistake perhaps but he didn't deserve the concerted media attack and predictably spiteful public response to the attacks on Twitter, nor the po-faced involvement of Kick it Out and the Premier League. Spurs fans defending Alli on here as if he's a misunderstood satirist is not going to play well. It comes across as a wind-up. I'm sure you wouldn't want that.

I wouldn't go so far to say that Dele's video was satire. But you'd have to be pretty dumb to believe that the butt of the joke is the Asian guy. There is no joke, such as it is, if it isn't on Alli himself (or the character he is playing for the purpose of the video).

As to Bernardo, I doubt that he gets even 20% of the media intrusion and opprobrium or 10% of the abuse from opposition fans that Alli gets. I get that you guys are angry about Bernardo's treatment and I get that you don't like Spurs or Alli but when you have posters on here saying that they have reported Alli to the FA and encouraging everyone else to do the same, it quickly becomes obvious that the motivation for the outrage is other than that which has been expressed.

 

[dronefromsector7G]

Go on, then, tell me......

What, specifically, was racist about the video?

At what point did Alli state or imply the inferiority of another race? At what point did he refer to another race pejoratively? At what point did he express hatred for or intolerance of another race? At what point did he attribute unique and offensive physical, mental, linguistic or behavioural characteristics to another race?

He did none of those things.

What he did do was make a skit on video that was in poor taste, given the growing coronavirus epidemic. It was an ill judged and poorly conceived attempt at topical humour. Current affairs was the motivation for the skit. Not racism. And it seems perfectly obvious that the joke is intended to be on himself (and paranoia) - not on his unwitting "co-star".

I see you have looked up racism and cherry-picked some of it’s meanings to support your argument.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Spurs fans defending Alli on here as if he's a misunderstood satirist is not going to play well. It comes across as a wind-up. I'm sure you wouldn't want that.

west ham fans would do the same if it was theirs
arsenal fans would do the same if it was one of theirs
man city fans would do the same if it was one of theirs

football is tribal, fans have a totally different perspective when its one of their players.

 

[JimB]

I see you have looked up racism and cherry-picked some of it’s meanings to support your argument.

Cherry picked? Nope. What I wrote pretty much covers it all.

Of course, you might choose to imagine or fabricate new definitions of racism to suit your own ends but that wouldn’t make you any less objectively wrong.

 

[JimB]

Isn't it odd how Spurs fans think Bernado was hard done to now they have a similar problem on their hands, I don't remember much sympathy at the time.

Did any Spurs fan on here say anything about Bernardo at all? It wasn’t a story that I followed in any depth.

Certainly, I don’t recall Spurs fans reporting Bernardo to the FA or calling for him to be kicked out of your club. ;-)

 

[mancityvstoke]

west ham fans would do the same if it was theirs
arsenal fans would do the same if it was one of theirs
man city fans would do the same if it was one of theirs

football is tribal, fans have a totally different perspective when its one of their players.

This is a Manchester City forum and some of us fucking hate Spurs.

Suck it up.

 

[JimB]

He implied that another race of people might be diseased and we've got to wash our hands around them.

No, he did not. That is merely your inference.

Just for comparison, let's imagine someone did a similar thing with a black person saying "Careful you don't catch HIV" because the HIV crisis in Africa had been in the news lately (presumably he didn't know that the man was Chinese, just that he looked Chinese).

Heavily loaded, wildly inaccurate analogy. No matter how wrongly, HIV has huge behavioural stigma and prejudice already attached to it. And its means of proliferation is not at all the same as that of coronavirus, which is spread no differently to the common cold. In your analogy, the “joke” couldn’t help but be judgmental about black Africans - and therefore racist. By contrast, in no way was Alli’s poorly conceived joke judgmental (or encouraging anyone else to be so) about Asians because of who they actually are. It merely references the fact that a virus that can affect us all originated in Asia and has thus far affected vastly more Asians than people from other parts of the world. It’s clumsy, certainly. But.....

...textbook racism...

?

.....absolutely not.

Which isn't to say that he deserves to be hung, drawn and quartered for it or that he's actually a racist. I'm sure we've all told a racially insensitive joke one time or another, and it's obvious that he's joking. I'm not a fan of people overreacting to a clear joke told once followed by an immediate apology. Like with Bernardo, I don't think that should result in sanctions on the pitch, but the FA have set a precedent now, so he will almost certainly get a match ban, which of course is only fair since our player had the same.

Agreed.

 

[TheCentralScrutinizer]

Wonder how offended Hinchcliffe is in all this....

 

[I'm With Stupid]

No, he did not. That is merely your inference.

Well as far as I'm concerned, that is the only possible interpretation where it even makes sense as a joke. If my "inference" is not the intended meaning, then what's another possible interpretation that still makes sense as a joke? Obviously I don't for one second think that the joke represents Deli Alli's views of Chinese people, but it is possible to do a crass joke that's a bit racist and be a good person.

Heavily loaded, wildly inaccurate analogy. No matter how wrongly, HIV has huge behavioural stigma and prejudice already attached to it. And its means of proliferation is not at all the same as that of coronavirus, which is spread no differently to the common cold. In your analogy, the “joke” couldn’t help but be judgmental about black Africans - and therefore racist. By contrast, in no way was Alli’s poorly conceived joke judgmental (or encouraging anyone else to be so) about Asians because of who they actually are. It merely references the fact that a virus that can affect us all originated in Asia and has thus far affected vastly more Asians than people from other parts of the world. It’s clumsy, certainly. But.....

There are not necessarily behavioural implications around HIV. It can be passed on from parent to child. The reality is that since the corona virus people, particularly kids, who 'look Chinese' have been the subject of bullying, mocking and ignorant comments, so I think the comparison to HIV is an apt one. I would argue that the main difference between the two is firstly that most people have been educated out of ignorant attitudes about HIV in a way that they haven't with the corona virus, and that racism against East Asian people is generally not taken as seriously because they're not as much of a visible oppressed minority. But since you don't agree, let's change it to the ebola virus. What would your opinion be of the same joke featuring a random black passenger (not necessarily an African, never mind an African from the affected countries) when the ebola outbreak was happening?

 

[Dubai Blue]

Cherry picked? Nope. What I wrote pretty much covers it all.

Of course, you might choose to imagine or fabricate new definitions of racism to suit your own ends but that wouldn’t make you any less objectively wrong.

Rather than imagining or fabricating a new a definition, let's just go with the one that the CPS and National Police Chiefs' Council use:
"Any incident/crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race."

Now, obviously that's a very wide net, but it's the accepted definition nonetheless.

Had his video been of someone, anyone, coughing and sneezing, he could justifiably claim that he was simply making light of the mass hysteria. I mean, everyone coughs and sneezes, right?

But he didn't; he chose to focus on a stranger who was just quietly going about his business. And why did he choose that particular stranger? Solely because he looked Asian/Chinese. No other reason.

As such, his actions displayed "prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race".

Now you can argue that it wasn't the most outlandish act of racism the world has ever seen, and of course you'd be right. But to claim there's no hint of racism in it at all doesn't tally with the legal definition.

Should he be banned from playing football because of this? Under normal circumstances, I'd say no. But The FA have made a rod for their own back by setting the bar so ridiculously low with the Bernardo incident, so I'll be surprised if he manages to escape at least a one-match ban for this.

 

[BlueHammer85]

This is a Manchester City forum and some of us fucking hate Spurs.

Suck it up.

I hate them more than you can imagine

 

[dronefromsector7G]

Cherry picked? Nope. What I wrote pretty much covers it all.

Of course, you might choose to imagine or fabricate new definitions of racism to suit your own ends but that wouldn’t make you any less objectively wrong.

What about this definition: discrimination directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group.

Discrimination : prejudiced treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction towards, a being based on the group, class, or category to which they are perceived to belong.

 

[Cornish_Blue]

I'm not really sure as to why you think Dele should get the same punishment as Bernardo. Personally I think what Dele did is sackable. Far worse than what Bernardo 'done' even though I thought Bernardo didn't do anything wrong.

personally, I would like to see an example made of him. He knew what he was doing, and now he’s been caught, he’s touting his sorrow etc.
Bernardo’s was a joke between very good friends, nothing that the FA should have EVEN got involved with. Alli should be given at least a 5 game ban or hung from Tower Bridge. His choice.
No doubt the FA will decide there’s nothing in it. Can’t have their darling Spurs being punished.

 

[Gazza]

personally, I would like to see an example made of him. He knew what he was doing, and now he’s been caught, he’s touting his sorrow etc.
Bernardo’s was a joke between very good friends, nothing that the FA should have EVEN got involved with. Alli should be given at least a 5 game ban or hung from Tower Bridge. His choice.
No doubt the FA will decide there’s nothing in it. Can’t have their darling Spurs being punished.

Maybe they'll make him CEO of the Premier League once officials from United & Liverpool have vetted him further.

 

[JimB]

Rather than imagining or fabricating a new a definition, let's just go with the one that the CPS and National Police Chiefs' Council use:
"Any incident/crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race."

Now, obviously that's a very wide net, but it's the accepted definition nonetheless.

Had his video been of someone, anyone, coughing and sneezing, he could justifiably claim that he was simply making light of the mass hysteria. I mean, everyone coughs and sneezes, right?

But he didn't; he chose to focus on a stranger who was just quietly going about his business. And why did he choose that particular stranger? Solely because he looked Asian/Chinese. No other reason.

As such, his actions displayed "prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race".

Now you can argue that it wasn't the most outlandish act of racism the world has ever seen, and of course you'd be right. But to claim there's no hint of racism in it at all doesn't tally with the legal definition.

Should he be banned from playing football because of this? Under normal circumstances, I'd say no. But The FA have made a rod for their own back by setting the bar so ridiculously low with the Bernardo incident, so I'll be surprised if he manages to escape at least a one-match ban for this.

With respect, what the CPS and police use isn't a definition of racism itself. Your quote is what is used to determine whether or not an incident is worthy of investigation and, possibly, prosecution on the grounds of racism. In other words, it is a catchall to ensure that the relevant authorities do not overlook racist motivation so that they, themselves, avoid accusations of racism. By very definition, their "definition" cannot be an actual definition of racism - because it talks about a victim's (or a third party's) perception of any incident or crime. And perception isn't proof. Not even close. It merely, as far as the police and CPS are concerned, opens one line of enquiry. Investigation by the police doesn't mean that the alleged perpetrator is guilty of racism. Nor, even, does prosecution. If it did, we wouldn't bother with court cases, judges and juries.

 

[Dubai Blue]

With respect, what the CPS and police use isn't a definition of racism itself. Your quote is what is used to determine whether or not an incident is worthy of investigation and, possibly, prosecution on the grounds of racism. In other words, it is a catchall to ensure that the relevant authorities do not overlook racist motivation so that they, themselves, avoid accusations of racism. By very definition, their "definition" cannot be an actual definition of racism - because it talks about a victim's (or a third party's) perception of any incident or crime. And perception isn't proof. Not even close. It merely, as far as the police and CPS are concerned, opens one line of enquiry. Investigation by the police doesn't mean that the alleged perpetrator is guilty of racism. Nor, even, does prosecution. If it did, we wouldn't bother with court cases, judges and juries.

That's fair enough. I still think he'll be lucky to escape a ban though because, as we've seen, The FA also have a very broad view of what racism actually is. It was ultimately the man's race that led Alli to make his comments and i suspect The FA are unlikely to let this go.

 

[Mon Autre]

With respect, what the CPS and police use isn't a definition of racism itself. Your quote is what is used to determine whether or not an incident is worthy of investigation and, possibly, prosecution on the grounds of racism. In other words, it is a catchall to ensure that the relevant authorities do not overlook racist motivation so that they, themselves, avoid accusations of racism. By very definition, their "definition" cannot be an actual definition of racism - because it talks about a victim's (or a third party's) perception of any incident or crime. And perception isn't proof. Not even close. It merely, as far as the police and CPS are concerned, opens one line of enquiry. Investigation by the police doesn't mean that the alleged perpetrator is guilty of racism. Nor, even, does prosecution. If it did, we wouldn't bother with court cases, judges and juries.

By the same token you're choosing to stick to a rigid dictionary definition which is trying to sum up an extremely complex and nuanced subject into a short snappy sentence. Personally I would say the huge body of information and discussion compiled by people who have actually experienced racism, academics, legal professionals etc is a better yardstick as to what constitutes racism than one lexicographers interpretation of it. Alli broadcast a very negative accusation about someone and invaded their privacy based on their race. You can call it racism, racial bullying or harassment or whatever you want. He certainly hasn't upheld the values expected of somebody working within an organisation that is trying to sell its product around the world (the benefits of which are reflected in his massive salary) and for those reasons I think he'll be sanctioned.