Shamima Begum

[hilts]

Do you think that children shouldn’t be treated differently by the law than adults? You appear to be unclear on this point.

You appear to be going off piste we can deal with how responsible a 15 to 19 yr old is later. I am still awaiting for your definition of society and why someone who cares about many innocent victims deaths but not about the perpetrator must be lacking in empathy or humanity.

 

[hilts]

At 18 she was an acting member of an internationally wanted terrorist organisation and involved in suicide bombings - she made them and stitched explosives into them, was a member of Hisba within ISIS (look them up if you do not know) and was actively involved and present in atrocities to innocent Syrian civilians.

The accounts are from other Daesh members and the intelligence services.

This is a classic case of “I only worked on reception at Auschwitz” but it turns out the person was actually responsible for herding people into gas chambers.

To do this at 18 and then show absolutely no remorse nor regret for her actions says everything and whilst I appreciate as a man of the law, you wish to see it upheld, it is still contentious and any right minded individual should want this bitch dead.

One might wear a pointed white hat, one might wear a white robe, one may stand in a field with others wearing the same outfit, one may hold a burning cross, one may pass on a rope but as long as one doesnt slap the horses arse, it’s all good. Plus if your 15 to 19 yrs old mummy probably made you do it.

 

[mexico1970]

There should be a Nuremburg like trial arena set up where evidence can be given and punishment given out, witnesses and evidence given in the country where these crimes were committed. Punishments to be meted out by those affected by ISIS and for those punishments to include the death penalty by those adjudicating decide it.

 

[hilts]

With gibbering lunacy? Obviously. What sane person doesn’t?

If she spills coffee on your white sofa don’t blame me:-)

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

You appear to be going off piste we can deal with how responsible a 15 to 19 yr old is later. I am still awaiting for your definition of society and why someone who cares about many innocent victims deaths but not about the perpetrator must be lacking in empathy or humanity.

I raised my point first!

 

[hilts]

I raised my point first!

Okay at 15 to 18 I believe a person who has lived around non jihadists most of their lives, seen a smile from a pensioner or a laugh from a child is fully aware killing them is plain wrong and only an evil bitch could not only help in this but seem unrepentant deserves nothing but shit. I hope this clears up my view on the age thing. If this fits in with a civilised society I don’t know because no one seems to know what it should mean in reality.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Okay at 15 to 18 I believe a person who has lived around non jihadists most of their lives, seen a smile from a pensioner or a laugh from a child is fully aware killing them is plain wrong and only an evil bitch could not only help in this but seem unrepentant deserves nothing but shit. I hope this clears up my view on the age thing. If this fits in with a civilised society I don’t know because no one seems to know what it should mean in reality.

Bit busy with work right now but will answer later :-)

 

[Ban-jani]

Bit busy with work right now but will answer later :-)

Answer my post too you git

 

[Ban-jani]

How was she supposed to see the error of her ways and come back at 15 then?

I doubt she wanted to, but you have to agree that had she been remorseful and wanted to get out, she couldn't

That's all her own fault of course but expecting her to renounce everything whilst over there or plan an escape with her kids is impossible

I didn’t say that.

She could.

Her interview was at 19 in a Kurdish prisoner camp.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The legal system? So any person wanting a stronger punishment than this so called society(I would like someone to define society to me) must suffer from a lack of compassion? I don’t believe in the death penalty strangely enough but for a long time in this country the majority were in favour. By your argument millions of people must be incapable of compassion or humanity.

There are 2 main problems with both our way of seeing things. Yours would be that even though you know that innocent people will suffer the most dire consequences of this civilised society you accept this. In this respect you are showing less humanity than me. Possible future victims are your collateral damage and a price worth paying.

My definition of society is the rules and conventions by which we operate.

It's hugely complicated and ultimately subjective (which I believe I provided for in my post) and I'll try not to sound too pompous, but in my view a civilised society is one that balances the rights of the innocent and the guilty in a way that is proportionate, and one that also recognise that, to some extent, we can all fall into both categories and that some people are capable of change - and the younger they are, the more capable they are of so doing.

More specifically to the point in hand, I believe that closing the door on someone who has faltered in their youth (and I would count up to 21 in this regard (although on a downward sliding scale from the age of 18 onwards, in particular)) is not what I would consider civilised, even if they have committed terrible acts before they are legally adults. I felt the same way about Venables and Thompson - one of whom appears to have rehabilitated himself, the discernibly other less so.

My view about people lacking compassion was probably not expressed in a way that was nuanced enough, and Begum possibly descends into a grey area (which I should have provided for in my post) but I do believe that anyone who wholly fails to concur with the point I make about drawing a distinction between a 16 year old and (say) a 22 year old palpably lacks sufficient compassion imo, and if they do agree there is a distinction to be drawn, then I fail to see how my view on Begum is inconsistent with that.

I accept the last part of your post may, to some extent, render many people's views replete with inconsistency, myself included, and all I can do is try and find a position that falls most squarely within my view on the subject in order not to be hypocritical around it, through the prism of Begum.

I feel that someone who makes a mistake (even to the extent of Begum) from the ages of fifteen to eighteen (when her principal 'offending' appears to have occurred) should be, at some point, afforded the opportunity to contribute to society again, once they've been punished for that offending, and for her, in my view (as previously posted) that should be when she's in her forties, assuming she's sufficiently demonstrated genuine remorse and regret for her actions.

I hope that deals with you enquiry sufficiently. ​

 

[hilts]

My definition of society is the rules and conventions by which we operate.

It's hugely complicated and ultimately subjective (which I believe I provided for in my post) and I'll try not to sound too pompous, but in my view a civilised society is one that balances the rights of the innocent and the guilty in a way that is proportionate, and one that also recognise that, to some extent, we can all fall into both categories and that some people are capable of change - and the younger they are, the more capable they are of so doing.

More specifically to the point in hand, I believe that closing the door on someone who has faltered in their youth (and I would count up to 21 in this regard (although on a downward sliding scale from the age of 18 onwards, in particular)) is not what I would consider civilised, even if they have committed terrible acts before they are legally adults. I felt the same way about Venables and Thompson - one of whom appears to have rehabilitated himself, the discernibly other less so.

My view about people lacking compassion was probably not expressed in a way that was nuanced enough, and Begum possibly descends into a grey area (which I should have provided for in my post) but I do believe that anyone who wholly fails to concur with the point I make about drawing a distinction between a 16 year old and (say) a 22 year old palpably lacks sufficient compassion imo, and if they do agree there is a distinction to be drawn, then I fail to see how my view on Begum is inconsistent with that.

I accept the last part of your post may, to some extent, render many people's views replete with inconsistency, myself included, and all I can do is try and find a position that falls most squarely within my view on the subject in order not to be hypocritical around it, through the prism of Begum.

I feel that someone who makes a mistake (even to the extent of Begum) from the ages of fifteen to eighteen (when her principal 'offending' appears to have occurred) should be, at some point, afforded the opportunity to contribute to society again, once they've been punished for that offending, and for her, in my view (as previously posted) that should be when she's in her forties, assuming she's sufficiently demonstrated genuine remorse and regret for her actions.

I hope that deals with you enquiry sufficiently. ​

I genuinely thank you for your reply and we just disagree on the age range in fairness. My only concern was I took your post to mean anyone who doesn't agree with your view on this woman means they must lack compassion and humanity.

Currently the general meaning of a civilised society has been forged not by society as a whole or even by a majority. It has been formed by politicians and other smaller groups.

Just because we currently follow certain criteria developed by others it doesn't make it automatically civilised. It's just the opinion of those who structured it and those that agree with it.

At its base form being civil is being nice to each other. Anyone who takes a chance with disregard for others lives is not being very civil in my book.

I expect her eventually to come back. Serve a short sentence and then we'll have to keep our fingers crossed. Let's hope society doesn't suffer.

 

[mexico1970]

that should be when she's in her forties, assuming she's sufficiently demonstrated genuine remorse and regret for her actions.

I hope that deals with you enquiry sufficiently.

I agree with that bud it all seems like common sense doesn't it? Nevertheless I would like a mechanism to be put in place where she is tried in the vicinity of her crimes (if she has committed any) because getting evidence and making that evidence stick might very well be a lot harder for a UK court to get.

 

[Ban-jani]

Your words:

"Had she been there at 15, later changed her mind, tried to flee or you know, shown remorse in her interview with Sky News at 19, then I would be totally for punishment but rehabilitation for her"

Okay so my point was/is that if she wasn’t holding a gun, attending to suicide vests and being totally devoid of any regret or remorse, as an adult, I may feel differently.

 

[Ardwick Green Blue]

I've been trying to find an ounce of sympathy and forgiveness for Begum within me.




Nope...I'm not feeling it.

 

[Fame Monster]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...oners-trial-syria-sdf-terrorism-a9321921.html

Looks like this will be the way forward from now on.

Begum's not expected to be included in the first group to be tried but I think it's a matter of time before she's put on trial herself.

I think the demands of justice are that she is accountable to the people who suffered most at her hands first before she's then later tried for the separate but wholly related crimes she may have committed under either British or Bangladeshi law.

 

[Ardwick Green Blue]

Begum isn’t looking too downhearted in interviews published today. The new niqab-less image complete with diamanté nose piercing is something of a change in direction from her ISIS caliphate days..

 

[Ban-jani]

Begum isn’t looking too downhearted in interviews published today. The new niqab-less image complete with diamanté nose piercing is something of a change in direction from her ISIS caliphate days..

She’s posted in front of a Union Jack cushion and has tried to westernise her appearance.

The cushion was upside down but that’s her being thick I think more than anything.

She’s lost weight it seems.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Begum isn’t looking too downhearted in interviews published today. The new niqab-less image complete with diamanté nose piercing is something of a change in direction from her ISIS caliphate days..

See, I've been saying all along that people can change...

 

[Ban-jani]

See, I've been saying all along that people can change...

Or she’s now desperate and is doing what she can to come back.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Or she’s now desperate and is doing what she can to come back.

I wish I was a streetwise as you...