The Labour Party

ROCKET80 said:
No need to apologise, I dip in and out of the forum/threads. So I apologise for making you repeat yourself.

They'll be no attacks from me (at least I'll try and that's a start), I think this is where both sides of the debate need to get better, we may have differing opinions, what we need to do is to try to understand them and finding a middle ground to settle on...The issue with that is does it really take us anywhere?

Tougher on crime, especially drugs - I'm all for tougher on the causes of crime. I think the war on drugs has been lost, punishing users and small time dealers has got us nowhere. Tougher sentences for horrific crimes I can get on board with, but not the death penalty.

Police officers to patrol again - Nothing wrong with that, having the police on the beat and known in the community I think works.

Tougher on immigration - This is the hot topic, that can gets emotional quickly. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with the UKs immigration policy before this current Government came into power. I think there is a complete lack of understanding around immigration and the processes of it. That is no fault of anyone's as how often do indigenous people have to go through the process? Discussions into why people believe immigration is an issue has to be had (and without branding people racist, even if they are) getting examples then research being done into it. If the results back up their assumptions then devise a plan to deal with it, if it doesn't find a way to better communicate why what they believe to be true isn't.

Protection of the countryside - Something I'm sure most would agree on.

A total reform of the education system - I'm unsure what that looks like to you, what you think is currently wrong with it nor your experiences. I know very little about how kids are taught compared to how I was, I know some teachers and some that have stepped away due to the and stress involved, not from teaching but other demands. Would be good to hear from any teachers on this forum about what works well and what needs changing.

British values added to curriculum - British values could mean different things to different people. A real warts and all focus on British history and workings of British government would be good.

Policies focused on the family unit - Again open to interpretation. More help for families such as free day care would be a great start.

Better support for maternity - Everyone should agree with this, for both parents. We can look towards Finland for a good example,

Policies focused on the community - Agree with this, making communities safer, more welcoming and working together surely benefits everyone, as long as their is acceptance of diversity...It should hep with that acceptance.

Protection of positive Christian values - I don't know what Christian values are under threat that they need protecting. I'm firmly anti-religion anyway and if I had my way would get rid of all faith schools (I went to Catholic schools). I understand religion is important to some people but if those values, Christian or otherwise, go against what we deem to be British Values, then they take a back seat.

End to identity politics - Agree with this, we're all complicated individuals that can't be sorted into just one box - I might be what some deem to be a 'hysterical liberal' sometimes but I think I've shown with my responses to your social conservatism that we can agree on things and find some common ground in other areas.

The main thing for me is not accepting simple answers to complicated solutions from any of our elected leaders or opposition. The media should provide more scrutiny over politicians plans to deliver what they are promising and asking how they have come to the conclusion and seeking non partisan experts in those fields to review and offer their opinions should be the norm. For us as people is to try to understand the political opinions of others, better questioning and debate.

We're all susceptible to making statements that are either uncouth or inflammatory. We get emotional over things we passionately believe in and become frustrated when others do not see our way is right. We always will.

So to finish on something that unites us all on this forum....Liverpool fans are c**ts!​
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The war on drugs hasn’t been fought in this country. The police don’t even enforce laws on cannabis, never mind the pitiful sentencing for cocaine dealing. I know someone convicted with intent to supply. He was out in 18 months. We need to deter people from taking it. Longer sentences for possession, that are actually enforced, will stop the middle classes taking the drugs and will kill the business.

The UK’s policy under Blair was to ban the word immigration and relax every single control we have ever had. Read “Broken Vows”, it’s a fantastic book that outlines Jack Straw and Blair’s purposeful policy to totally change our society through immigration. Cameron and May have continued on from New Labour and there needs to be controls now. Community is everything and communities are almost wiped out. It’s not just immigration that’s doing this but it’s contributing.

Well I’d reintroduce grammar schools. The comprehensive only experiment has failed and we have the worst education system for a 1st world country. I’d reintroduce the teachers’ ability to discipline. The classroom is now ruled by the children and this cannot continue. We must strive for excellence and this constant strive for equality is failing.

My generation has absolutely no idea about the history of this country, what British values are and they only care about the trash culture that started in the US and crept over here. You’re right they should be taught about the empire in history and atrocities committed in the name of Britain but I’m talking about citizenship lessons first and foremost. Community, how to treat one another. How communities used to work together. How to conduct yourself in society. The back drop to these lessons must be based on such by what it’s like to live in Britain.

My policies on the family and maternity are about freeing up parents to actually be parents. Handing over children to professionals isn’t the way to bring children up but unfortunately there’s little choice for many. This is such a hard policy to introduce and will likely need complete societal change. In short we need to someone try and help families to keep a solid - father, mother and children - in place. Single parent families are much harder to manage and whilst I have the deepest respect for those single parents, we need to somehow try and minimise that happening.


Again I think we need to maintain Christian thinking across society, even if teaching the positive parts in the Ten Commandments and the love part. I have been atheist pretty much my entire life but I think part of the problem in this country, with the rise in crime, is lack of authority and religion is one area of this.

The trouble we have is in parliament MPs are just trying to get by and hope no one notices them cocking up. We’re devoid of people on my side standing up and pushing for proper Conservative social change, that I think this country is crying out for.

You seem a nice chap and reasonable. Let me ask you this...

Do you feel it’s a coincidence that after 30 years of liberal policy that crime is infinitely worse and society is breaking down and when you compare it to when this country had conservative social values, this breakdown just wasn’t there?
 
Ban-jani said:
I did say “positive”.

Child abuse isn’t present is it? It’s mostly catholic priests committing those crimes but Jesus was hardly telling people to be nonces.
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It was quite prevalent in the protestant churches as well. Buddhists were at it too. Seems to be a religious thing.
 
aguero93:20 said:
It was quite prevalent in the protestant churches as well. Buddhists were at it too. Seems to be a religious thing.
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It’s prevalent in schools and football scouts too, in fact everywhere where there are easy access to children.

Who would have thought?
 
Ban-jani said:
It’s prevalent in schools and football scouts too, in fact everywhere where there are easy access to children.

Who would have thought?
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Makes you appreciate the lengths Andrew Windsor went to considering he wasn't in any of the aforementioned professions.
 
aguero93:20 said:
Makes you appreciate the lengths Andrew Windsor went to considering he wasn't in any of the aforementioned professions.
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Well he had access to many underage girls, whilst being protected by one of the world’s most powerful businessmen. It was the perfect scenario for him until Epstein was found out.
 
Ban-jani said:
Well he had access to many underage girls, whilst being protected by one of the world’s most powerful businessmen. It was the perfect scenario for him until Epstein was found out.
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They should have gone with the car crash really, hanging him in his cell was a bit blatant.
 
Ban-jani said:
You seem a nice chap and reasonable. Let me ask you this...

Do you feel it’s a coincidence that after 30 years of liberal policy that crime is infinitely worse and society is breaking down and when you compare it to when this country had conservative social values, this breakdown just wasn’t there?
Click to expand...

You seem a nice chap and reasonable. Let me ask you this...

Do you feel it’s a coincidence that after 30 years of liberal policy that crime is infinitely worse and society is breaking down and when you compare it to when this country had conservative social values, this breakdown just wasn’t there?[/QUOTE]

Has it increased? CSEW estimates it's fallen from the 80's and peak mid-90's..Police Recorded Crime has risen but they'd be many factors in play for that. Women, LGBTQ+ and minorities being more confident in reporting crimes than in the past. I'd argue the Conservative values of the past instilled fear in people being able to come forward, that's before you add in the drop in Police numbers.

24 hours news cycles, social media etc. play a major part in our perception of crime. We could possibly have a topic of peoples experience of crime over the last few decades to gauge opinion, although interesting it wouldn’t be conclusive.

Punishment for use and possession of drugs is a hard one and much better minds than ours have and continue to try to tackle it. For me more effort should be going in to finding and dealing with those at the top.

Thanks for the reading tip, I'll genuinely add that to my ever growing list. I just don't believe that immigration is as big a problem in the UK as was/is being made out to be. From the stats/reporting I have seen nothing seems to support this, granted I may be more inclined to read reports from outlets that lend to my bias. Of course I’d be a fool to say immigration has no impact, it does and always will. I just think the issues of it are dangerously over-stated and they’re a handy scapegoat when Governments and their social/economic policies are to blame.


As far as I'm aware the UK rates consistently in the top 20 or top 10 (depending on which report you read) for education in the world. I'm sure today teaching methods and lessons are much better than our schooling days. There are problem schools and kids, as there has always been and always will be, I disagree with the statement that kids rule the classroom and going back to teacher discipline (by that I'm assuming you mean corporal punishment?) I don't think achieves anything. On this are we both talking from our own experiences and or perceptions, teachers I know have more issues with Ofsted.

I acknowledge you opinion on this I can't get onboard with the Citizenship lessons. We all have different opinions on what it is to be British, I fear here we move into nostalgia. Lessons on the history of Britain and how we came to be, what 'Britishness' for want of a better word was and how it has evolved over the centuries and what it looks like now could be beneficial.

I like the sentiment but again can't get on board with it. I agree more should be done to help the family unit but what a family looks like now has changed dramatically and trying to keep a 'traditional' Father, Mother, children unit together is outdated (I don't mean this to be insulting to you).

I can’t agree with promoting Christian thinking and disagree the lack of it has any impact on our society, if anything over the las few centuries it has held us back. IMO Science, Philosophy, The Arts should be promoted more for a bigger positive impact on society.

I’m not sure how old you are (and I’m too polite to ask), my experience with people who share similar views to yourself all tend to be from a certain age demographic, people who have seen a rapid change in society over the last 30 years and are uncomfortable with it. That’s understandable, especially when people are told to get on board quickly or be put into a box and be branded. Challenging the way people think is a must and that goes for all sides, the way we challenge needs to be looked at, shouting at each other or name calling just entrenches each other’s opinions. Although even when presented facts a belief in an opinion can be so strong those facts are ignored, if that is case we just have to walk away from it.

FWIW I’m enjoying this chat, I haven’t called you a Nazi and you haven’t called me a liberal snowflake….yet, the night is still young
 
@ROCKET80

Again, I’ll reply to this in the morning in full but I’m 27, just to let you know. This has been present in my entire life and it’s definitely not nostalgia nor a refusal to accept change. I changed from a liberal into a Conservative.
 
ROCKET80 said:
Has it increased? CSEW estimates it's fallen from the 80's and peak mid-90's..Police Recorded Crime has risen but they'd be many factors in play for that. Women, LGBTQ+ and minorities being more confident in reporting crimes than in the past. I'd argue the Conservative values of the past instilled fear in people being able to come forward, that's before you add in the drop in Police numbers.

24 hours news cycles, social media etc. play a major part in our perception of crime. We could possibly have a topic of peoples experience of crime over the last few decades to gauge opinion, although interesting it wouldn’t be conclusive.

Punishment for use and possession of drugs is a hard one and much better minds than ours have and continue to try to tackle it. For me more effort should be going in to finding and dealing with those at the top.

Thanks for the reading tip, I'll genuinely add that to my ever growing list. I just don't believe that immigration is as big a problem in the UK as was/is being made out to be. From the stats/reporting I have seen nothing seems to support this, granted I may be more inclined to read reports from outlets that lend to my bias. Of course I’d be a fool to say immigration has no impact, it does and always will. I just think the issues of it are dangerously over-stated and they’re a handy scapegoat when Governments and their social/economic policies are to blame.


As far as I'm aware the UK rates consistently in the top 20 or top 10 (depending on which report you read) for education in the world. I'm sure today teaching methods and lessons are much better than our schooling days. There are problem schools and kids, as there has always been and always will be, I disagree with the statement that kids rule the classroom and going back to teacher discipline (by that I'm assuming you mean corporal punishment?) I don't think achieves anything. On this are we both talking from our own experiences and or perceptions, teachers I know have more issues with Ofsted.

I acknowledge you opinion on this I can't get onboard with the Citizenship lessons. We all have different opinions on what it is to be British, I fear here we move into nostalgia. Lessons on the history of Britain and how we came to be, what 'Britishness' for want of a better word was and how it has evolved over the centuries and what it looks like now could be beneficial.

I like the sentiment but again can't get on board with it. I agree more should be done to help the family unit but what a family looks like now has changed dramatically and trying to keep a 'traditional' Father, Mother, children unit together is outdated (I don't mean this to be insulting to you).

I can’t agree with promoting Christian thinking and disagree the lack of it has any impact on our society, if anything over the las few centuries it has held us back. IMO Science, Philosophy, The Arts should be promoted more for a bigger positive impact on society.

I’m not sure how old you are (and I’m too polite to ask), my experience with people who share similar views to yourself all tend to be from a certain age demographic, people who have seen a rapid change in society over the last 30 years and are uncomfortable with it. That’s understandable, especially when people are told to get on board quickly or be put into a box and be branded. Challenging the way people think is a must and that goes for all sides, the way we challenge needs to be looked at, shouting at each other or name calling just entrenches each other’s opinions. Although even when presented facts a belief in an opinion can be so strong those facts are ignored, if that is case we just have to walk away from it.

FWIW I’m enjoying this chat, I haven’t called you a Nazi and you haven’t called me a liberal snowflake….yet, the night is still young
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On the contrary crime is not being reported for a lot of it. For example my car was recently broken into and I didn’t bother reporting it as nothing will be done. There are many similar incidents and smaller crimes are just being ignored. Crime is being reported on smaller scale and it’s still up massively from when this country was genuinely conservative. You’re probably right about hate crimes and people being scared to come forward, of course my version of conservative Britain would encourage all to come forward. I still don’t think, in terms of numbers, that crime was reported less then. You only have to smell the cannabis walking through Manchester to realise crime is being committed every single hour of every day, in Manchester City Centre and it’s unchallenged.

Punishment for drugs use and dealing is much stronger in Japan and South Korea and has worked.

My mother in law is a teacher, four of my close friends are and I only left school in 2008 (same year I switched from Chelsea to City ;-)). It’s an area I know quite well. One of the four friends has recently quit due to the abuse she’s got as a teacher and the other three have major issues with their classes and have all said they feel as though they lack control. Literacy levels are now very poor and despite the left introducing equalitarianism in to the education system, with the comprehensive experience, the gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever. There was a study done across 50% of the UK’s universities that found they had less than 5% of people were from a poor white working class background. Now I don’t care much for the racial aspect but it highlights the gap.

I don’t wish to return to the 70s where children were often beaten because the teacher just didn’t like them. My dad has some stories about being beaten when totally innocent. I do feel though we need to go some way in that direction again. There needs to be an escalation point where a teacher can properly discipline a problem child.

The British values/citizenship lessons don’t necessarily have to be specific to our culture but I do think that would help. Just an hour a week teaching children how to behave and how to treat others with respect, wouldn’t go amiss. It would likely help them later in life.

I totally disagree the family unit is an outdated concept. It’s taken a battering and the results prove it’s needed more than ever.

With regards to Christian values, you adhere to them whether you believe Christ was the son of god or existed anyway. Our entire society has Judeo-Christianity at the heart of its concious. Again, similar to my point on the citizenship lessons, we don’t necessarily have to make this specifically religious but promoting some parts of the bible, especially the parts on kindness, charity and some of the Ten Commandments, will definitely help.

As I say, I’m 27, I’m not nostalgic as I’ve only ever lived in a liberal society and I have realised the whole thing stinks - mostly of drugs and crime and degenerates behaving appallingly.

I don’t expect many to agree, liberalism is programmed into the psyche of many now, as it has been the policy of government and our institutions for decades.
 
Ban-jani said:
.

I don’t expect many to agree, liberalism is programmed into the psyche of many now, as it has been the policy of government and our institutions for decades.
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Smoking cannabis out in the open is surely down to austerity and cuts to police numbers, leading to people becoming more brazen with flouting this law. It’s been flouted for decades, especially at gigs. On a personal note, I have no issue with cannabis and think it should be decriminalised.

Tougher punishments might work in Japan and South Korea but they are completely different cultures. America would be a more appropriate country to compare us too in this respect.

Two of my closet friends, my sister-in-law and other friends who are teachers and have taught in various schools across socio-economic areas state their biggest issues is the parents and not the kids and the pressure caused by things being more prescriptive from when Gove stunk the place out. As for literacy, levels they are better than previous years as expectations are now higher. I’m not sure what equalitarianism in the education system looks like.

I acknowledge the fact we’re both talking from other people’s experiences within our bubbles and the truth is probably somewhere in-between.

I certainly don’t want any teacher having the ability to physically discipline a child. There are other measures.

I’ll respectfully disagree with the British values and culture lessons as I don’t think anyone could agree what they are/is. Imagine the insanity of trying to confirm what these look like on this forum.

I don’t think the family unit has taken a battering or proven to be needed more than ever. I assuming here your referring to the traditional view of it being a Father and Mother with children. I think what matters most is that children are loved and supported, that they see adults having healthy relationships with their partners whether married or not, or separated. It doesn’t matter if they are single parents, same sex parents or ‘living in sin’.

I’m not sure what Christian values we adhere to everyday that are specific to Christianity. Kindness and charity can be taught without the need for religious involvement. Religion didn’t create, nor really did much to help promote these unless it was in their interest.

I’m not too sure what liberal policies you believe have contributed to what you see as society’s downfall. We tend to get more conservative as we get older. Every generation moans about the one that succeeds it. They’re all work shy, and their music is shite :-)

There is a very romanticised version of Britain that goes along with the conservatism of the time, things were worse then than they are now (it was considerably worse for working classes).

The reason why social conservatism lacks support is I believe because most see it as being anti-change, maintaining the status-quo (class system and Monarchy) and for people to ‘know their place’ in society, it supresses sex, especially homosexuality and wants to uphold ‘traditional values’ (whatever these are, conveniently forgetting hundreds of years before these ‘traditional values’ were forced upon us, mostly at the behest of the Monarchy/Church when trying to control the population) it weaponises patriotism and when all this is coupled with religious beliefs and values it’s very, very dangerous.

I’m well aware now we’ve gone completely off topic, I’ve enjoyed our civilised jousting and hope to continue in other threads on the topics we've discussed.
 
Ban-jani said:
On the contrary crime is not being reported for a lot of it. For example my car was recently broken into and I didn’t bother reporting it as nothing will be done. There are many similar incidents and smaller crimes are just being ignored. Crime is being reported on smaller scale and it’s still up massively from when this country was genuinely conservative. You’re probably right about hate crimes and people being scared to come forward, of course my version of conservative Britain would encourage all to come forward. I still don’t think, in terms of numbers, that crime was reported less then. You only have to smell the cannabis walking through Manchester to realise crime is being committed every single hour of every day, in Manchester City Centre and it’s unchallenged.

Punishment for drugs use and dealing is much stronger in Japan and South Korea and has worked.

My mother in law is a teacher, four of my close friends are and I only left school in 2008 (same year I switched from Chelsea to City ;-)). It’s an area I know quite well. One of the four friends has recently quit due to the abuse she’s got as a teacher and the other three have major issues with their classes and have all said they feel as though they lack control. Literacy levels are now very poor and despite the left introducing equalitarianism in to the education system, with the comprehensive experience, the gap between rich and poor is bigger than ever. There was a study done across 50% of the UK’s universities that found they had less than 5% of people were from a poor white working class background. Now I don’t care much for the racial aspect but it highlights the gap.

I don’t wish to return to the 70s where children were often beaten because the teacher just didn’t like them. My dad has some stories about being beaten when totally innocent. I do feel though we need to go some way in that direction again. There needs to be an escalation point where a teacher can properly discipline a problem child.

The British values/citizenship lessons don’t necessarily have to be specific to our culture but I do think that would help. Just an hour a week teaching children how to behave and how to treat others with respect, wouldn’t go amiss. It would likely help them later in life.

I totally disagree the family unit is an outdated concept. It’s taken a battering and the results prove it’s needed more than ever.

With regards to Christian values, you adhere to them whether you believe Christ was the son of god or existed anyway. Our entire society has Judeo-Christianity at the heart of its concious. Again, similar to my point on the citizenship lessons, we don’t necessarily have to make this specifically religious but promoting some parts of the bible, especially the parts on kindness, charity and some of the Ten Commandments, will definitely help.

As I say, I’m 27, I’m not nostalgic as I’ve only ever lived in a liberal society and I have realised the whole thing stinks - mostly of drugs and crime and degenerates behaving appallingly.

I don’t expect many to agree, liberalism is programmed into the psyche of many now, as it has been the policy of government and our institutions for decades.
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Some of the ten commandments? Presumably leaving out those you want to break?
 
Vic said:
Some of the ten commandments? Presumably leaving out those you want to break?
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No Vic, I just doubt most people are going to adhere to the ones about blasphemy and it would be wrong to expect Muslim children and those that have other faiths to adhere to them all.
 
ROCKET80 said:
Smoking cannabis out in the open is surely down to austerity and cuts to police numbers, leading to people becoming more brazen with flouting this law. It’s been flouted for decades, especially at gigs. On a personal note, I have no issue with cannabis and think it should be decriminalised.

Tougher punishments might work in Japan and South Korea but they are completely different cultures. America would be a more appropriate country to compare us too in this respect.

It’s being flouted because if you get caught nothing happens to you. The police literally refuse to enforce the law and don’t charge people.

It’s more to do with what the police actually do. Roy Jenkins stopped them patrolling areas in 1967 and crime has been incredibly higher ever since. Since that year they’ve sat behind desks being reactive, rather than proactive.

When you’ve seen a family member, with no prior history of mental health, have a complete mental breakdown and almost kill someone and himself, or when you read about how nearly every terrorist in western society smoked cannabis regularly, you’ll realise the risks are far too high.

The US is also culturally different to us and their country is far vaster. Whilst we have some aspects of it in this country they have ghettos where there is an almost impossibility to lift yourself out of poverty. These areas are larger and run deeper.

The war on drugs did work in this country, fundamentally, when we were tougher on them.

Two of my closet friends, my sister-in-law and other friends who are teachers and have taught in various schools across socio-economic areas state their biggest issues is the parents and not the kids and the pressure caused by things being more prescriptive from when Gove stunk the place out. As for literacy, levels they are better than previous years as expectations are now higher. I’m not sure what equalitarianism in the education system looks like.

I am going off personal experience, knowing 5 teachers but I’m also going off statistics that literacy has got worse and teachers are quitting in record numbers due to how they are treated and the lack of control they have over their class rooms. Like the prison system, the bubble will burst soon and things are going to get very ugly.

It looks like now, where you cannot be selective on talents in many areas and the years in which we’ve had this comprehensive experiment.

I acknowledge the fact we’re both talking from other people’s experiences within our bubbles and the truth is probably somewhere in-between.

I certainly don’t want any teacher having the ability to physically discipline a child. There are other measures.

It’s a last resort for me and I don’t think returning to the 70s, where teachers had a free reign on violence, is the way to go.

I’ll respectfully disagree with the British values and culture lessons as I don’t think anyone could agree what they are/is. Imagine the insanity of trying to confirm what these look like on this forum.

British values are already instilled in education, if you want to take an apprenticeship you need to learn them. I’m just saying we need to add them to the curriculum of primary and secondary education.

I don’t think the family unit has taken a battering or proven to be needed more than ever. I assuming here your referring to the traditional view of it being a Father and Mother with children. I think what matters most is that children are loved and supported, that they see adults having healthy relationships with their partners whether married or not, or separated. It doesn’t matter if they are single parents, same sex parents or ‘living in sin’.

I totally disagree here but that’s fine. The breakdown of the family unit and how families behave is critical and has overseen a lot of the breakdown in society. It really is under threat and children from single parents are at a disadvantage. I’m not saying there aren’t fantastic single parents and children of single parents who aren’t good people, it’s just there are some who aren’t and it effects society. It’s not just single parents, it’s the type of parenting too, as you’ve alluded to. With regards to gay parents, I wasn’t making a negative point about them. Whilst women tend to be better with smaller children, naturally, two gay dads can do a great job and I’m not against the LGBT community.

I’m not sure what Christian values we adhere to everyday that are specific to Christianity. Kindness and charity can be taught without the need for religious involvement. Religion didn’t create, nor really did much to help promote these unless it was in their interest.

Kindness and charity were some examples but our society has been shaped for centuries by Judeo-Christian philosophy and teaching. I’m not expecting people to be religious, just an appreciation that since we’ve tried to abandon it, something else will fill the void and we may not like it.

I’m not too sure what liberal policies you believe have contributed to what you see as society’s downfall. We tend to get more conservative as we get older. Every generation moans about the one that succeeds it. They’re all work shy, and their music is shite :-)

Now you’re stereotyping :-)

There is a very romanticised version of Britain that goes along with the conservatism of the time, things were worse then than they are now (it was considerably worse for working classes).

The reason why social conservatism lacks support is I believe because most see it as being anti-change, maintaining the status-quo (class system and Monarchy) and for people to ‘know their place’ in society, it supresses sex, especially homosexuality and wants to uphold ‘traditional values’ (whatever these are, conveniently forgetting hundreds of years before these ‘traditional values’ were forced upon us, mostly at the behest of the Monarchy/Church when trying to control the population) it weaponises patriotism and when all this is coupled with religious beliefs and values it’s very, very dangerous.

It doesn’t lack support - it’s a part of why Labour got such a battering at the election, despite the Tories not really being social conservatives, they’re just more so than Labour. The working classes are socially to the right.

There’s nothing wrong with the monarchy, our constitution works when we’re not having referendums :-)

homosexuality I agree but I don’t think modern conservatives are even fighting this argument, the majority are for gay rights as I am.

Conservatism is the will to keep the good things we’ve retained from our ancestors. It’s the need not to constantly change and revolutionise everything.

Liberalism has seen a decay in how people treat each other and how moral society is. Some aspects of liberalism are fundamentally needed and I’m not authoritarian. It’s just there are many aspects of conservatism that should be reapplied to improve the country.

I’m well aware now we’ve gone completely off topic, I’ve enjoyed our civilised jousting and hope to continue in other threads on the topics we've discussed.

I agree that we need to agree to disagree. It’s been a good chat and it’s nice to not have to shout and swear to get your point across. I’m fighting a losing battle I know but conservative values are still more popular than many think.
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More than happy to leave this now I’ve answered it :-)
 
Ban-jani said:
As I say, I’m 27
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Wow! That genuinely surprises me. Typically your posts are consistent with someone who is much older ... and wiser ;-)

Carry on like that you'll be like John Redwood or Jacob Rees Mogg by the time you are 40!
 
Chippy_boy said:
Wow! That genuinely surprises me. Typically your posts are consistent with someone who is much older ... and wiser ;-)

Carry on like that you'll be like John Redwood or Jacob Rees Mogg by the time you are 40!
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Thank you, I guess haha.

I’m not sure about your last line but I am concerned about how old I’ll mentally by the time I’m 40.
 
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