The Labour Party

[The perfect fumble]

starmer got your vote because you thought he was full of shit?
Long Bailey looked like she was honest so she’s not for you?

Labour Party members in fine shape I see

Long-Bailey was honest in telling us what she believed, but it wasn't her honesty that put me off, it's what she believed.

Nandy was Long-Bailey lite and simply not up to it.

Starmer got my vote, because Harold Wilson wasn't standing, on account of he's dead.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

The report is a parting shot, a knuckle sandwich farewell, a little drop of truth to remind those who care, that facts matter, that the smear campaign was orchestrated by Blairites and echoed in the media as stone cold fact.

But they weren't smears were they? What the report appears to show is that there were anitsemitic issues within the party but that some parts were determined to use those to make Corbyn look worse. However most non-cult members are quite clear that Corbyn's elevation to the leadership was the catalyst for the outpouring of antisemitism within sections of the party.

The Labour Party is not an anti-Semitic Party,

Even the appalling Chakrabarti whitewash showed that there was antisemitism within the party. They are under invstigation by the EHRC, which is still to deliver its final report. That could well determine that the Labour Party was institutionally antisemitic, which would fuck up your argument no end.

Corbyn is not an anti-Semite,

Been shown conclusively a number of times that he is.

Interesting that one of the recommendations from Chakrabarti was that there shouldn't be lifetime bans for the use of racist language (which was appalling) and that there shouldn't be retrospective action for racist acts that took place prior to her investigation. The main reason for that was probably that Corbyn knew what was coming and wanted to make sure he was protected.

the Party does not have a history of anti-Semitism, it has no anti-Semitic policies. Ed Miliband Labour Party leader leader between 2010 and 2015 came from a Jewish family. Starmer, elected by this so called anti-Semitic Party, is married to a woman whose father is Jewish.

You highlight two individuals. Antisemitism in the party wasn't an issue under Miliband. Or Brown, Blair, Smith, Kinnock, Callaghan, Wilson. Yet it was under Corbyn. Doesn't that say something?

And let's go back to the post-war Attlee government, where the Foreign Secretary - Ernie Bevin - was an avowed antisemite.

The whole anti-Semitism smear was nothing more than disgusting dark arts politics based on fuck all.

It's quite clear to the non-brainwashed that they weren't smears. It's clear that MacNicol didn't deal with the issues well, partly motivated by his hatred for Corbyn (which appears to have been shared by much of the Party secretariat and the PLP) but that Formby's appointment was barely better for dealing with antisemitism disciplinary issues. Neither the pro or anti-Corbyn factions come out of this with any credit.

Even that bag of carrots you love talking to understands this.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

But they weren't smears were they? What the report appears to show is that there were anitsemitic issues within the party but that some parts were determined to use those to make Corbyn look worse. however most non-cult members are quite clear that Corbyn's elevation to the leadership was the catalyst for the outpouring of antisemitism within sections of the party.

Even the appalling Chakrabarti whitewash showed that there was antisemitism within the party. They are under invstigation by the EHRC, which is still to deliver its final report. That could well determine that the Labour Party was institutionally antisemitic, which would fuck up your argument no end.

Been shown conclusively a number of times that he is.

Interesting that one of the recommendations from Chakrabarti was that there shouldn't be lifetime bans for the use of racist language (which was appalling) and that there shouldn't be retrospective action for racist acts that took place prior to her investigation. The main reason for that was probably that Corbyn knew what was coming and wanted to make sure he was protected.


You highlight two individuals. Antisemitism in the party wasn't an issue under Miliband. Or Brown, Blair, Smith, Kinnock, Callaghan, Wilson. Yet it was under Corbyn. Doesn't that say something?

And let's go back to the post-war Attlee government, where the Foreign Secretary - Ernie Bevin - was an avowed antisemite.

It's quite clear to the non-brainwashed that they weren't smears. It's clear that MacNicol didn't deal with the issues well, partly motivated by his hatred for Corbyn (which appears to have been shared by much of the Party secretariat and the PLP) but that Formby's appointment was barely better for dealing with antisemitism disciplinary issues. Neither the pro or anti-Corbyn factions come out of this with any credit.

Thanks for the insight PB. Genuine, unloaded question. In an earlier post you talk about ant- zionism and zionists. Can you expand on the point i think you made about anti zionists being antisemitic and how this plays out in relation to the state of Israel? I hear this argument a lot in my discussions ie. 'I am not anti-semite but...,'

 

[jitsubluedan]

Thanks for the insight PB. Genuine, unloaded question. In an earlier post you talk about ant- zionism and zionists. Can you expand on the point i think you made about anti zionists being antisemitic and how this plays out in relation to the state of Israel? I hear this argument a lot in my discussions ie. 'I am not anti-semite but...,'

And in addition to the above, can you also clarify if opposing the policies of the Israeli government is also anti Semitic? Genuine question as it seems some who cite anti Zionism probably mean they don’t agree with the policies, although I cannot say that for certain, not knowing their intentions.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

And in addition to the above, can you also clarify if opposing the policies of the Israeli government is also anti Semitic? Genuine question as it seems some who cite anti Zionism probably mean they don’t agree with the policies, although I cannot say that for certain, not knowing their intentions.

That was the crux of my thinking.

 

[The perfect fumble]

most non-cult members are quite clear that Corbyn's elevation to the leadership was the catalyst for the outpouring of antisemitism within sections of the party.

I'm not up to speed on these things, the use of the word tribe in relation to Jews is clearly anti-Semitic, but using the word cult is OK in all circumstances?

Oh! And you're dead wrong, again, most Labour Party members, cult or otherwise, didn't have a clue about all these anti-Semitism accusations, it didn't chime with the Party they knew, it all appeared a bit sandwich with no filling, and that's because it was, a screamingly small number of tweets and social messaging bollocks that added up to the sum total of fuck all.

What we now know, courtesy of this report, is that the tawdry way cases of anti-Semitism were being dealt with by the Party, was not a consequence of deep seated institutional anti-Semitism in the cult, let alone the wider Party, but a result of factional in fighting spearheaded by paid Labour Party staff members, aided by Blairite MPs, who were deliberately sabotaging the process to smear the Trots.

Even the appalling Chakrabarti whitewash showed that there was antisemitism within the party. They are under invstigation by the EHRC, which is still to deliver its final report.

Appalling because she didn't agree with you.

That could well determine that the Labour Party was institutionally antisemitic, which would fuck up your argument no end.

Or not.

Given the thumping Labour received at the polls and the prominent role played by establishment Jewish voices, who will forget the terrible reprisals the Jewish community suffered at the hands of the institutionally anti-Semitic Labour Party! I certainly won't! Jewish people attacked by roaming bands of Momentum thugs, Jewish businesses and synagogues vandalised in revenge! After all that's what anti-Semitic cults do.

But guess what? None of that happened! The Party only went and voted for a bloke married to a woman with a Jewish dad! And bugger me! They brought back that fella with the Jewish father who hated Britain! Ah! I hear you say, that's because they got rid of that anti-Semitic Corbyn fella and his Jew hating cult! it's such a beautiful, pointless, circular argument.

Unlike so many knee jerkers in here you're not a stupid man, at the beginning of this sorry fiasco you and I discussed this in measured tones, but battle lines got drawn and now we just talk past each other. I consider your position so thin as to be close to none existent and you consider me so brain washed as to be beyond reasoned argument.

You don't trust my motives and I don't trust yours.

But there is some solace to be had, this report is really a parting two fingered salute to the Blairites, if it hadn't been anti-Semitism, it would've been something else, it's the final shot in a lost war, one we both lost.

Truth is, it doesn't matter any more.

 

[Tb1981]

Kier Starmer has all the qualities to be a great leader
He looks the part and speaks well
Not sure if his position on brexit helps or hinders him though

 

[journolud]

Kier Starmer has all the qualities to be a great leader
He looks the part and speaks well
Not sure if his position on brexit helps or hinders him though

Is looking the part and speaking well all the qualities you need to be a great leader? Strikes me they are the basic qualities you need to start to impress the voting public but that a little more substance might be required. Mind you that didn’t stop the scruffy, bumbling current incumbent getting elected.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Thanks for the insight PB. Genuine, unloaded question. In an earlier post you talk about ant- zionism and zionists. Can you expand on the point i think you made about anti zionists being antisemitic and how this plays out in relation to the state of Israel? I hear this argument a lot in my discussions ie. 'I am not anti-semite but...,'

Zionism is a political movement that developed during the 19th century, mainly in Eastern Europe where Jews were subject to increased antisemitism, both via political action and actual pogroms consisting of violent actions against Jewish communities. One reaction was mass migration, to places like the USA, UK, Western Europe, South Africa & Australia. The other was the belief that Jews would only ever have security from persecution in via self-setermination, specifically in the old Jewish homeland of what's now Israel and the Occupied Territories. This wasn't feasible while the territory was controlled by the Ottoman Empire but did become feasible once the British controlled it towards the end of WW1. There's a Zionism covers all parts of the political & religious spectrum, from the ultra-nationalist and ultra-religious to the secular and socialist. Originally it tended toward the latter and the desire for a "homeland" but the use of 'Zionist' by the modern left tries to equate it solely to the former. It's perfectly possible to be a Zionist, where you support the establishment and desire for continued self-determination & security of the modern state of Israel, and still support the rights of the Palestinians to their own form of self-determination.

In it's literal sense therefore, anti-Zionism rejects the establishment and continued existence of Israel. There are those who believe Israel's existence is "illegitimate", which is a nonsense postion to take frankly. They can probably claim to be truly anti-Zionist but the denial of self-determination for Jews is de facto antisemitism. If you believe in Israel's right to exist however, even if that's within the pre-1967 borders, then you are, in effect, a Zionist.

And in addition to the above, can you also clarify if opposing the policies of the Israeli government is also anti Semitic? Genuine question as it seems some who cite anti Zionism probably mean they don’t agree with the policies, although I cannot say that for certain, not knowing their intentions.

No. Criticising the policies of the Israeli government is not in itself antisemitic, any more than criticising the policies of the Saudi or Pakistani government is Islamophobic, or criticising our own government's policies is 'unpatriotic'. Many Jews, including those who class themselves as 'Zionists' don't like Netanyahu or his policies towards the Palestinians. Criticising Israeli policy is not anti-Zionism. Denying Israel's right to exist is.

 

[Ban-jani]

I'm not up to speed on these things, the use of the word tribe in relation to Jews is clearly anti-Semitic, but using the word cult is OK in all circumstances?

Oh! And you're dead wrong, again, most Labour Party members, cult or otherwise, didn't have a clue about all these anti-Semitism accusations, it didn't chime with the Party they knew, it all appeared a bit sandwich with no filling, and that's because it was, a screamingly small number of tweets and social messaging bollocks that added up to the sum total of fuck all.

What we now know, courtesy of this report, is that the tawdry way cases of anti-Semitism were being dealt with by the Party, was not a consequence of deep seated institutional anti-Semitism within the cult, but a result of the factional in fighting by paid Labour Party staff members, aided by Blairite MPs, who were deliberately sabotaging the process to smear the Trots.



Appalling because she didn't agree with you.


Or not.

Given the thumping Labour received at the polls and the prominent role played by establishment Jewish voices, who will forget the terrible reprisals the Jewish community suffered at the hands of the institutionally anti-Semitic Labour Party! I certainly won't! Jewish people attacked by roaming bands of Momentum thugs, Jewish businesses and synagogues vandalised in revenge! After all that's what anti-Semitic cults do.

But guess what? None of that happened! The Party only went and voted for a bloke married to a woman with a Jewish dad! And bugger me! They brought back that fella with the Jewish father who hated Britain! Ah! I hear you say, that's because they got rid of that anti-Semitic Corbyn fella and his Jew hating cult! it's such a beautiful, pointless, circular argument.

Unlike so many knee jerkers in here you're not a stupid man, at the beginning of this sorry fiasco you and I discussed this in measured tones, but battle lines got drawn and now we just talk past each other. I consider your position so thin as to be close to none existent and you consider me so brain washed as to be beyond reasoned argument.

You don't trust my motives and I don't trust yours.

But there is some solace to be had, this report is really a parting two fingered salute to the Blairites, if it hadn't been anti-Semitism, it would've been something else, it's the final shot in a lost war, one we both lost.

Truth is, it doesn't matter any more.

You’re actually comparing the trope used to stereotype a whole race of people with a stereotype for describing a fringe political movement?

The lack of self awareness is utterly staggering.

Always the victims never your fault is so applicable to this view.

Even John McDonnell called it a “stain” on Corbyn’s time leading the party and says he wishes they did much better with it.

You also massively underestimate Jewish anxieties whenever a party gets to a certain level of hatred for them, they quite rightly refuse to trust it.

I suggest you watch the below and sit there with a straight face and try and defend that level of abuse:

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Zionism is a political movement that developed during the 19th century, mainly in Eastern Europe where Jews were subject to increased antisemitism, both via political action and actual pogroms consisting of violent actions against Jewish communities. One reaction was mass migration, to places like the USA, UK, Western Europe, South Africa & Australia. The other was the belief that Jews would only ever have security from persecution in via self-setermination, specifically in the old Jewish homeland of what's now Israel and the Occupied Territories. This wasn't feasible while the territory was controlled by the Ottoman Empire but did become feasible once the British controlled it towards the end of WW1. There's a Zionism covers all parts of the political & religious spectrum, from the ultra-nationalist and ultra-religious to the secular and socialist. Originally it tended toward the latter and the desire for a "homeland" but the use of 'Zionist' by the modern left tries to equate it solely to the former. It's perfectly possible to be a Zionist, where you support the establishment and desire for continued self-determination & security of the modern state of Israel, and still support the rights of the Palestinians to their own form of self-determination.

In it's literal sense therefore, anti-Zionism rejects the establishment and continued existence of Israel. There are those who believe Israel's existence is "illegitimate", which is a nonsense postion to take frankly. They can probably claim to be truly anti-Zionist but the denial of self-determination for Jews is de facto antisemitism. If you believe in Israel's right to exist however, even if that's within the pre-1967 borders, then you are, in effect, a Zionist.


No. Criticising the policies of the Israeli government is not in itself antisemitic, any more than criticising the policies of the Saudi or Pakistani government is Islamophobic, or criticising our own government's policies is 'unpatriotic'. Many Jews, including those who class themselves as 'Zionists' don't like Netanyahu or his policies towards the Palestinians. Criticising Israeli policy is not anti-Zionism. Denying Israel's right to exist is.

I don't agree with the right to self-setermination, whatever that is...

 

[jitsubluedan]

Zionism is a political movement that developed during the 19th century, mainly in Eastern Europe where Jews were subject to increased antisemitism, both via political action and actual pogroms consisting of violent actions against Jewish communities. One reaction was mass migration, to places like the USA, UK, Western Europe, South Africa & Australia. The other was the belief that Jews would only ever have security from persecution in via self-setermination, specifically in the old Jewish homeland of what's now Israel and the Occupied Territories. This wasn't feasible while the territory was controlled by the Ottoman Empire but did become feasible once the British controlled it towards the end of WW1. There's a Zionism covers all parts of the political & religious spectrum, from the ultra-nationalist and ultra-religious to the secular and socialist. Originally it tended toward the latter and the desire for a "homeland" but the use of 'Zionist' by the modern left tries to equate it solely to the former. It's perfectly possible to be a Zionist, where you support the establishment and desire for continued self-determination & security of the modern state of Israel, and still support the rights of the Palestinians to their own form of self-determination.

In it's literal sense therefore, anti-Zionism rejects the establishment and continued existence of Israel. There are those who believe Israel's existence is "illegitimate", which is a nonsense postion to take frankly. They can probably claim to be truly anti-Zionist but the denial of self-determination for Jews is de facto antisemitism. If you believe in Israel's right to exist however, even if that's within the pre-1967 borders, then you are, in effect, a Zionist.


No. Criticising the policies of the Israeli government is not in itself antisemitic, any more than criticising the policies of the Saudi or Pakistani government is Islamophobic, or criticising our own government's policies is 'unpatriotic'. Many Jews, including those who class themselves as 'Zionists' don't like Netanyahu or his policies towards the Palestinians. Criticising Israeli policy is not anti-Zionism. Denying Israel's right to exist is.

Many thanks for the clarification.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I don't agree with the right to self-setermination, whatever that is...

I'm avowedly anti-smartarse!

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I don't agree with the right to self-setermination, whatever that is...

Does that make you anti-sermetic?

 

[Tb1981]

Is looking the part and speaking well all the qualities you need to be a great leader? Strikes me they are the basic qualities you need to start to impress the voting public but that a little more substance might be required. Mind you that didn’t stop the scruffy, bumbling current incumbent getting elected.

Ha ha
Wasn’t necessarily saying they are all the qualities!
But they are two the last leader didn’t have

 

[mat]

Get the popcorn out.

Keir is doing a meet the members video conference tomorrow. Let's see which questions are allowed and which aren't.

 

[hilts]

The report is a parting shot, a knuckle sandwich farewell, a little drop of truth to remind those who care, that facts matter, that the smear campaign was orchestrated by Blairites and echoed in the media as stone cold fact.

The Labour Party is not an anti-Semitic Party, Corbyn is not an anti-Semite, the Party does not have a history of anti-Semitism, it has no anti-Semitic policies. Ed Miliband Labour Party leader leader between 2010 and 2015 came from a Jewish family. Starmer, elected by this so called anti-Semitic Party, is married to a woman whose father is Jewish.

The whole anti-Semitism smear was nothing more than disgusting dark arts politics based on fuck all.

 

[Ban-jani]

It’s worse than that, it’s total delusion and an apology for the filthy racism that went on and still likely goes on.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

It’s worse than that, it’s total delusion and an apology for the filthy racism that went on and still likely goes on.

Yet we don't seem to have heard a thing about it since corbyn agreed to resign. The constant reports of the rise of anti-Jewish violence seem to have dried up completely, and since Starmer has taken over not one member of the Jewish community seems to have expressed their concern at the antisemitism within labour. Truly Sir Kier, and indeed labour as a whole should be applauded for turning things round within the party, and it would seem the nation since the GE in December. It is heart warming indeed to see things improve so quickly and gives me great hope that labour can one day become a lively inclusive party like the Conservatives or lib dems.

 

[Ban-jani]

Yet we don't seem to have heard a thing about it since corbyn agreed to resign. The constant reports of the rise of anti-Jewish violence seem to have dried up completely, and since Starmer has taken over not one member of the Jewish community seems to have expressed their concern at the antisemitism within labour. Truly Sir Kier, and indeed labour as a whole should be applauded for turning things round within the party, and it would seem the nation since the GE in December. It is heart warming indeed to see things improve so quickly and gives me great hope that labour can one day become a lively inclusive party like the Conservatives or lib dems.

I think it’s a combination of things, with many packing up and going home since the election and then the build up the leadership vote, that mostly had to be done behind closed doors at home, in the end.

Many Corbyn supporters have gone off sulking since he announced he was stepping down and they’ve likely not been as active as they were.

Plus the EHRC is investigating at the moment and there’s the thing that many far left Labour members have actually not just sulked but left as well, since Starmer won.