COVID-19 — Coronavirus

[shemnel]

They have data by hospital trust.

cases by UTLA and deaths by trust, which is an odd one, but perhaps done by address (test) and certificate of death (hospital)

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Worth noting that correlation doesn’t necessarily equate to causation.

exactly the whole country was in the upward curve generally then anyway .

they still should not have gone ahead though.

 

[blueinsa]

Worrying but predictable news this morning from Germany who had the R rate at 0.7, slowly lifted their lockdown and are not back at 1 with cases on the rise again. It will be like this well into next year right across the globe imo.

 

[shemnel]

my uncle died last week, in his sleep (was ill for years, did very well), but they wanted a post-mortem to determine death as he'd muddled through for so long.

Had a call to say they've decided he died of coronavirus. At no point did he display a single sympton, my auntie is fine (70s) plus they were isolating anyway. Now, i am a little suspicious here, I admit he was prime candidate but i thought that he'd at least display some sort of symptom, and my aunt has been fine? odd

 

[blueinsa]

I think that`s obvious to everyone.

During a Global pandemic I would expect the government to mobilise the country so as to produce what we need.
Thousand`s of companies large and small have been ignored when they`ve tried to notify the government of there willingness to help in the supply of protective mask`s or the material to make them.
The government start by saying it was more dangerous to wear mask`s. Now it has changed to mask`s don`t offer much protection.
I think when eventually the dust starts to settle this government will be held to account over the lack of quality PPE and there decision to not advise on the wearing of mask`s.

Without a doubt the PPE and financial help for all has been abysmal from the government with promises made and not a lot done to deliver on them.

 

[Manc Born & Bred]

Because unless you haven`t noticed these are anything but "normal" times. In fact I`d say they are absolutely fucking abnormal times.

You have spectacularly missed the point. The Government aren’t responsible for PPE in care homes. In fact they aren’t responsible for it in the NHS either as people are employed to work in the NHS to procure product whether it be PPE, sheets and towels or cotton wool buds. Normally PPE is supplied to around 230 NHS trusts, care homes are separate and I think there are about 11,500 of them and each group or individual home is essentially responsible for their premises. Now up 50,000 places require huge amounts of PPE and that’s just in the UK and doesn’t include the general public

 

[Gabriel]

Worrying but predictable news this morning from Germany who had the R rate at 0.7, slowly lifted their lockdown and are not back at 1 with cases on the rise again. It will be like this well into next year right across the globe imo.

Perhaps partly a consequence of some states easing their measures earlier than others and against the advice of the national government. Agree with the prognosis.

 

[twosips]

I’m not particularly interested in politics so most certainly not a “Tory” point of view, but what is the fucking obsession on tv and by the media with all this revisionism, hindsight etc in attempting to just blame the government for everything that is happening?

It’s just fucking weird, they didn’t create the virus. Of course there have been mistakes made, but surely we should be trying to move forward rather than backwards.

Like this morning, again it’s all about the care homes and accuracy of death figures, and will we be top of the list. Why does it matter? Again, no other country is reporting accurately as far as we are aware so why is it so important? We know it’s horrific how many are dying in care homes, but it’s not the governments fault.

Then they now move on to British Airways, wailing about the proposed redundancies. This is just the start. What can we do? Absolutely fuck all. Why don’t they just discuss the view that it’s going to take fucking years before air travel gets back to whatever kind of normal that normal is, and consequently how the fuck can they have all these staff sat doing fuck all. It’s shite, but that’s what happens after times like this. “The government should step in”, here’s news, it fucking can’t for fucks sake.

Apologies for the rant at this time of the morning but it’s just so fucking negative, it’s pathetic. We need some positivity, it’s just giving everyone a reason to be depressed.

I don't get that at all. Why does it matter? Really? Why does it matter that piss poor measures have cost thousands their lives? Or course it matters!

Really odd to suggest otherwise. The government are 100% accountable for things at the moment. This isn't North Korea. They're allowed to be questioned. They didn't create the virus but they're accountable for how they reacted to it. We had more time than most due to seeing what was unfolding elsewhere. Sat on our hands. Care homes have been failed.

 

[ayrshire_blue]

Worrying but predictable news this morning from Germany who had the R rate at 0.7, slowly lifted their lockdown and are not back at 1 with cases on the rise again. It will be like this well into next year right across the globe imo.

I see they're going to see if it can be brought back down/contained over the next short period of time before making any decision on correcting their restrictions again. Maybe a wise thing to do but I've got the fear that this will soon be out of hand again. What happens elsewhere in Europe is likely to happen here.

 

[mrbelfry]

Why don't all the companies offering to make PPE for the NHS just make them for the general public instead? Then there will be slightly less demand on whatever supply chains the NHS are using. There is also the rest of the world trying to buy PPE that you can sell to. Then if our government decide they want them there won't be any of the start up time that comes with starting from scratch.

 

[crooky]

Just seen that more people can be tested now. But presumably you have to get tested when you're still ill?

From what I've heard you wouldn't want to leave the house as it's so bad. Can you not be tested after it's happened or is it not an antibody test?

 

[PragueBlue]

Just seen that more people can be tested now. But presumably you have to get tested when you're still ill?

From what I've heard you wouldn't want to leave the house as it's so bad. Can you not be tested after it's happened or is it not an antibody test?

It's a test to see if you have it I think, so it's not going to tell you if you've had it or not. Just if you have it at the time of the test.

 

[Fame Monster]

I’m not particularly interested in politics so most certainly not a “Tory” point of view, but what is the fucking obsession on tv and by the media with all this revisionism, hindsight etc in attempting to just blame the government for everything that is happening?

It’s just fucking weird, they didn’t create the virus. Of course there have been mistakes made, but surely we should be trying to move forward rather than backwards.

Like this morning, again it’s all about the care homes and accuracy of death figures, and will we be top of the list. Why does it matter? Again, no other country is reporting accurately as far as we are aware so why is it so important? We know it’s horrific how many are dying in care homes, but it’s not the governments fault.

Then they now move on to British Airways, wailing about the proposed redundancies. This is just the start. What can we do? Absolutely fuck all. Why don’t they just discuss the view that it’s going to take fucking years before air travel gets back to whatever kind of normal that normal is, and consequently how the fuck can they have all these staff sat doing fuck all. It’s shite, but that’s what happens after times like this. “The government should step in”, here’s news, it fucking can’t for fucks sake.

Apologies for the rant at this time of the morning but it’s just so fucking negative, it’s pathetic. We need some positivity, it’s just giving everyone a reason to be depressed.

Part and parcel of living in a democracy mate with a free press. If you're upset at the media asking tough questions when there's been 40,000 excess deaths (of all causes) then we might as well pack in this democracy thing because there's never been a better time to ask tough questions.

The 'hindsight' argument is a bit dishonest too, plenty saw this coming and said so at the time. Even now we've got people (inc experts) saying the Gov't giving the wrong advice on face masks, just like they said about air travel, mass gatherings etc. We can't say in a couple months time if we have worse results than countries that opted for masks in public: 'nobody said anything/it's all in hindsight'. That is the real revisionism.

I agree that the questions should be focused on moving forward but if there's a policy decision that looks as though it's turned out disastrous (even at this early stage), they should be rightly questioned about it. It might be depressing to hear and hurt the feelings of the ministers but they're making decisions that are life and death and if they get a big decision wrong, they need to be held to account so they can't act with impunity.

That's why the care homes line of questioning matters. 9,000 excess deaths have occurred since the outbreak there. Were the Gov't right to send people back from hospital into care homes without a test? You might think it's nothing to do with them but plenty disagree and the bare minimum a free press can do in a democracy is ask the Gov't why they did it.

 

[crooky]

It's a test to see if you have it I think, so it's not going to tell you if you've had it or not. Just if you have it at the time of the test.

Thanks. Sounds like a waste of time then, unless you constantly keep getting ‘ill’ and your employer wants proof that one of you or your family members is ill with Corona.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think that`s obvious to everyone.

During a Global pandemic I would expect the government to mobilise the country so as to produce what we need.
Thousand`s of companies large and small have been ignored when they`ve tried to notify the government of there willingness to help in the supply of protective mask`s or the material to make them.
The government start by saying it was more dangerous to wear mask`s. Now it has changed to mask`s don`t offer much protection.
I think when eventually the dust starts to settle this government will be held to account over the lack of quality PPE and there decision to not advise on the wearing of mask`s.

My personal view is that we should all be wearing masks when out and about in places such as supermarkets especially and i have said so since the very start of this outbreak. Not only does this layman's view seem intrinsically pragmatic and sensible - you don't spray people with infected mucus when you cough if you are wearing a mask - it would seem to be proven to be effective in practice. When you look at the Asian countries where mask-wearing is the norm, they have been hit far less badly than European countries where people typically don't wear masks.

*However* the government's advice up until now about there being no benefit to the general public wearing masks as a matter of course, has been (wrongly IMO) backed by the WHO advice saying same. And whilst that is the case then the government should not be chastised for simply following WHO advice. Had the WHO been saying we should all be wearing masks and the government had ignored them, that would be entirely different. But this is not the case.

 

[havefaith]

I don't get that at all. Why does it matter? Really? Why does it matter that piss poor measures have cost thousands their lives? Or course it matters!

Really odd to suggest otherwise. The government are 100% accountable for things at the moment. This isn't North Korea. They're allowed to be questioned. They didn't create the virus but they're accountable for how they reacted to it. We had more time than most due to seeing what was unfolding elsewhere. Sat on our hands. Care homes have been failed.

I think in an ideal world Rammy has a point, we all make mistakes and move on, but this is far from the case and I think the tweet below highlights why.
If a newspaper can do this then what the hell is going on at government level, there comes a point where we all have to be held to account for our actions.

I dont think we,ll never get to the truth as to what's going on behind the scenes.

 

[richardtheref]

I took my mother to the eye hospital yesterday. Whilst I was waiting I watched the video on Covid 19 that was obviously out of date. On the video it said there was no evidence that mass gatherings spread the virus!!! The govt now deny they ever said this but there it was on an official govt safety film that was still playing as of yesterday

 

[havefaith]

Part and parcel of living in a democracy mate with a free press. If you're upset at the media asking tough questions when there's been 40,000 excess deaths (of all causes) then we might as well pack in this democracy thing because there's never been a better time to ask tough questions.

The 'hindsight' argument is a bit dishonest too, plenty saw this coming and said so at the time. Even now we've got people (inc experts) saying the Gov't giving the wrong advice on face masks, just like they said about air travel, mass gatherings etc. We can't say in a couple months time if we have worse results than countries that opted for masks in public: 'nobody said anything/it's all in hindsight'. That is the real revisionism.

I agree that the questions should be focused on moving forward but if there's a policy decision that looks as though it's turned out disastrous (even at this early stage), they should be rightly questioned about it. It might be depressing to hear and hurt the feelings of the ministers but they're making decisions that are life and death and if they get a big decision wrong, they need to be held to account so they can't act with impunity.

That's why the care homes line of questioning matters. 9,000 excess deaths have occurred since the outbreak there. Were the Gov't right to send people back from hospital into care homes without a test? You might think it's nothing to do with them but plenty disagree and the bare minimum a free press can do in a democracy is ask the Gov't why they did it.

Well said and everything I was alluding to in my earlier post, i just didn't have the energy or inclination to express it as well :-)

 

[mcfc1632]

You have spectacularly missed the point. The Government aren’t responsible for PPE in care homes. In fact they aren’t responsible for it in the NHS either as people are employed to work in the NHS to procure product whether it be PPE, sheets and towels or cotton wool buds. Normally PPE is supplied to around 230 NHS trusts, care homes are separate and I think there are about 11,500 of them and each group or individual home is essentially responsible for their premises. Now up 50,000 places require huge amounts of PPE and that’s just in the UK and doesn’t include the general public

Well said - it seems to me that people do not understand (or make much/any effort to understand) the role(s) of the NHS (NHS Procurement) in managing the procurement of equipment and medicines and also its management of the logistics of distribution through NHS Supply Chain through CCGs to the font-line services.

Of course the role of DHSC would/should have been key in working with the NHS to project/forecast requirements and for strategic planning - including for disasters and major incidents.

The procurement of equipment and medicines for the NHS is (and has been for many years, including the period up to the recent months) a highly complex set of arrangements - but the reality is that the NHS CEO (who has been excellent in that role since his appointment IMO) could/should be attracting a lot of criticism - along with the NHS board and DHSC - that is if there has to be blame apportioned - which unfortunately appears to be an obsessive need for some.

But that would also have been perverse IMO - I could have seen the NHS getting a lot of flax in the October-January period if they had limited the procurement of key medicines to undertake bulk procurement of PPE - but it was the DHSC and NHS that had the responsibility for that call and any escalation required. People of course do not find it ‘comfortable’ to criticise the NHS – they are not all front line clinicians!! but using hindsight to choose to slag off the government is convenient and desirable.

The truth, uncomfortable for some, is that this has been a major national and global disaster and of course the future reviews will identify where better decisions could have been taken etc. certainly there will be a review of and changes to the roles of NHS Procurement and NHS Supply Chain and the planning of DHSC and NHS for disasters and pandemics.

I am just catching up on this thread after 3 weeks of opting out when it became obvious that the emphasis for some was solely politically biased blame apportionment and they were unable to keep that to the Political thread. I see that there has been 600 pages to catch up on and this of course means that I will have missed out on a lot of really helpful stuff. Big shame that for me - as before the agenda posters took over I had found this thread to be a really helpful source of information and discussion.

I would not be surprised to find that my taking the time to make these comments results in the convenient labelling of myself as some Tory/Government apologist/etc. - which is absolute bollocks.

I am going to visit the political thread later - I wonder if that has developed into a platform for well-considered and objective discussion.

 

[jonmcity]

Just seen that more people can be tested now. But presumably you have to get tested when you're still ill?

From what I've heard you wouldn't want to leave the house as it's so bad. Can you not be tested after it's happened or is it not an antibody test?

The test is most affective in the first three days of symptoms.