COVID-19 — Coronavirus

[havefaith]

And just to lighten the mood a little -

 

[lancs blue]

Of course the role of DHSC would/should have been key in working with the NHS to project/forecast requirements and for strategic planning - including for disasters and major incidents.

Which was why Exercise Cygnus was carried out in 2016 to simulate the effect of a viral pandemic but the report on that exercise was never published - the government still refuses to - and it seems that some of the findings and recommendations were not acted upon, particularly in relation to stocks of PPE.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/

 

[BosnianBlue]

Tests for Covid are crap. I've read today that Dybala tested positive twice in last 10 days despite being negative 3 weeks ago. Also, here in Bosnia, the wife of one of the first confirmed cases died last night with all clinical symptoms of Covid, yet she was tested twice and was negative both times.

btw, we had a record number of confirmed cases today, yet many restrictions were lifted few days ago.

 

[Manc Born & Bred]

Tests for Covid are crap. I've read today that Dybala tested positive twice in last 10 days despite being negative 3 weeks ago. Also, here in Bosnia, the wife of one of the first confirmed cases died last night with all clinical symptoms of Covid, yet she was tested twice and was negative both times.

btw, we had a record number of confirmed cases today, yet many restrictions were lifted few days ago.

There is a simple reason why Dybala might have been negative three weeks ago but positive ten days ago and it's nothing to do with the tests being crap

 

[SWP's back]

my uncle died last week, in his sleep (was ill for years, did very well), but they wanted a post-mortem to determine death as he'd muddled through for so long.

Had a call to say they've decided he died of coronavirus. At no point did he display a single sympton, my auntie is fine (70s) plus they were isolating anyway. Now, i am a little suspicious here, I admit he was prime candidate but i thought that he'd at least display some sort of symptom, and my aunt has been fine? odd

Sorry for you loss.

 

[Manc in London]

You have spectacularly missed the point. The Government aren’t responsible for PPE in care homes. In fact they aren’t responsible for it in the NHS either as people are employed to work in the NHS to procure product whether it be PPE, sheets and towels or cotton wool buds. Normally PPE is supplied to around 230 NHS trusts, care homes are separate and I think there are about 11,500 of them and each group or individual home is essentially responsible for their premises. Now up 50,000 places require huge amounts of PPE and that’s just in the UK and doesn’t include the general public

Is it not the responsibility of Govt to instruct care providers to have a certain level of PPE due to the increased threat of pandemics they were warned about?

Were care providers, some essentially small businesses warned about the increased threat of a pandemic, the risks to the care home sector and how the care sector could best prepare? I honestly don't know.

The Govt often pays to have people to be looked after in care homes. Is it therefore unreasonable for them to ensure standards are adhered to?

As for the NHS, you cannot simply separate the NHS from Govt. The NHS is managed by the Department of Health. Surely the Govt has a responsibility to ensure health care is coordinated?

People looking to separate Govt from the care sector is curious.

 

[Claytop]

Care homes have been hard hit everywhere unfortunately, I don’t think anyone was prepared or had any contingency plans in place for such a scenario.

This from Germany

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/04/10/care-a10.html

‘According to figures from the Registered Doctors’ Association in Bavaria, 244 practices in this federal state alone are closed—141 due to quarantine, 82 due to a lack of PPE, and 21 due to a lack of clinic staff.’

Fairly shocking.

Grim reading from Italy, nursing homes were offered €150 to take Covid-19 patients!

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/the-massacre-of-italy-s-elderly-nursing-home-residents-35575

Then you had this from Spain, finding bodies in beds.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...and-abandoned-at-care-homes-in-spain-11962804

This is not to defend the government’s response here but it’s clear this is not just an issue isolated to us.

The way most care homes are treated as just places for the elderly to be out of the way with little thought about safety has led to a severe loss of life.

 

[BlueAnorak]

I’m not particularly interested in politics so most certainly not a “Tory” point of view, but what is the fucking obsession on tv and by the media with all this revisionism, hindsight etc in attempting to just blame the government for everything that is happening?

It’s just fucking weird, they didn’t create the virus. Of course there have been mistakes made, but surely we should be trying to move forward rather than backwards.

Like this morning, again it’s all about the care homes and accuracy of death figures, and will we be top of the list. Why does it matter? Again, no other country is reporting accurately as far as we are aware so why is it so important? We know it’s horrific how many are dying in care homes, but it’s not the governments fault.

Then they now move on to British Airways, wailing about the proposed redundancies. This is just the start. What can we do? Absolutely fuck all. Why don’t they just discuss the view that it’s going to take fucking years before air travel gets back to whatever kind of normal that normal is, and consequently how the fuck can they have all these staff sat doing fuck all. It’s shite, but that’s what happens after times like this. “The government should step in”, here’s news, it fucking can’t for fucks sake.

Apologies for the rant at this time of the morning but it’s just so fucking negative, it’s pathetic. We need some positivity, it’s just giving everyone a reason to be depressed.

The media are doing themselves no favours whatsoever. Their intellectual integrity is currently getting close to zero.

 

[blueinsa]

I’m not particularly interested in politics so most certainly not a “Tory” point of view, but what is the fucking obsession on tv and by the media with all this revisionism, hindsight etc in attempting to just blame the government for everything that is happening?

It’s just fucking weird, they didn’t create the virus. Of course there have been mistakes made, but surely we should be trying to move forward rather than backwards.

Like this morning, again it’s all about the care homes and accuracy of death figures, and will we be top of the list. Why does it matter? Again, no other country is reporting accurately as far as we are aware so why is it so important? We know it’s horrific how many are dying in care homes, but it’s not the governments fault.

Then they now move on to British Airways, wailing about the proposed redundancies. This is just the start. What can we do? Absolutely fuck all. Why don’t they just discuss the view that it’s going to take fucking years before air travel gets back to whatever kind of normal that normal is, and consequently how the fuck can they have all these staff sat doing fuck all. It’s shite, but that’s what happens after times like this. “The government should step in”, here’s news, it fucking can’t for fucks sake.

Apologies for the rant at this time of the morning but it’s just so fucking negative, it’s pathetic. We need some positivity, it’s just giving everyone a reason to be depressed.

You should post more on the politics forum mate.

Spot on!

 

[blueinsa]

I don't get that at all. Why does it matter? Really? Why does it matter that piss poor measures have cost thousands their lives? Or course it matters!

Really odd to suggest otherwise. The government are 100% accountable for things at the moment. This isn't North Korea. They're allowed to be questioned. They didn't create the virus but they're accountable for how they reacted to it. We had more time than most due to seeing what was unfolding elsewhere. Sat on our hands. Care homes have been failed.

Problem arises with people asking questions that dont have the first fucking clue and just want a negative headline.

We are not isolated in this. This isn't a Tory construct, its a worldwide pandemic and for every paper or journo or poster on here that points to Germany and says we should do what they are doing, we see facts coming out of Germany that they dont report on or admit to that suggests all is not well there either.

Same applies, it isn't Merkels fault either and the whole world, politicians, scientists, medical professionals are dealing with an entirely unknown just a few short months ago and no one has the answers to this just now.

These people dont want an answer, they want a story, a head on a plate, a victim and they then move onto the next.

 

[Claytop]

Interesting analysis from ex head of health statistics at ONS, I’m not gonna say positive as it wouldn’t be appropriate but he’s got the death total quite abit lower than the FT, there is abit of discussion from him why it could be.



This one is better news too if correct.

 

[paulchapo]

Worth noting that correlation doesn’t necessarily equate to causation.

I'm surprised our league cup final wasn't mentioned as we know Karen caught it after attending and that Aston Villa fan, although he was showing symptoms prior.

 

[mcfc1632]

Which was why Exercise Cygnus was carried out in 2016 to simulate the effect of a viral pandemic but the report on that exercise was never published - the government still refuses to - and it seems that some of the findings and recommendations were not acted upon, particularly in relation to stocks of PPE.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ncovered-pandemic-warnings-buried-government/

I will get around to reading whatever the link you provide points to, but......

I will be very surprised if it does anything other than underpin the veracity of what I have said in my post about where the responsibility resides/resided for the planning of disasters, including pandemics. In fact - forget surprised, I am certain that it will underpin those views - simply because they are factual.

The problem is that people confuse accountability with responsibility and also delivery.

Of course SoSs bear ultimate accountability for their departments/briefs - we have seen no end of resignations of SoSs across governments over many years due to some major event/embarrassment. When something major happens, heads must roll - and the appropriate SoS or Minister is the obvious individual to provide satisfaction.

But SoSs and ministers come and go and are often seen by the parts of the CS owning that area as inconvenient but likely temporary distractions to be managed. I do not mean that as a particular criticism - how many changes has there been to Defence, Home Office and Health has there been in the past 15 years? Meanwhile the departments - in this case the DHSC and the NHS Board continue with the strategies and delivery for which they are responsible.

With regards to Health, it has long been acknowledged that there has been a need for a level of devolved accountability/responsibility - the ability to manage a long-term (say 20 years) strategy to transform the service into an integrated Health & Social Care Service Provision. That was the Brief given to Simon Stevens when he was appointed and it is the role of DHSC to work to support the NHS in the development of strategies and the NHS Board responsibility to manage delivery - including procurement and supply chain management.

The NHS has continued to be used by political parties to seek to secure votes - but all these parties are really promising to do is to provide funding. People comment as if there are government ministers managing day to day delivery - it is just a fallacy. the funding is provided and DHSC and the NHS Board have the responsibility for managing the implementation of strategy and delivery of service.

 

[mcfc1632]

Is it not the responsibility of Govt to instruct care providers to have a certain level of PPE due to the increased threat of pandemics they were warned about?

Were care providers, some essentially small businesses warned about the increased threat of a pandemic, the risks to the care home sector and how the care sector could best prepare? I honestly don't know.

The Govt often pays to have people to be looked after in care homes. Is it therefore unreasonable for them to ensure standards are adhered to?

As for the NHS, you cannot simply separate the NHS from Govt. The NHS is managed by the Department of Health. Surely the Govt has a responsibility to ensure health care is coordinated?

People looking to separate Govt from the care sector is curious.

I am afraid that you do not understand the model - and I mean no insult there, I am just being factual.

The short answer to your initial question is a straight-forward no.

It is for DHSC and the NHS Board to establish such policies and, through their commissioning and procurement functions, set out any such requirement for management of stock levels - e.g. in contractual SLAs.

This all seems to be a widespread lack of understanding of how things work - some of it quite understandable - some of it (certainly not aimed at you) seemingly agenda driven.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

You should post more on the politics forum mate.

Spot on!

@Rammy Blue don’t mate for your own sanity .

 

[Rammy Blue]

@Rammy Blue don’t mate for your own sanity .

I’d rather eat my own shit, pal.

I’ve no interest in politics, never have had, never will. They are all cunts with their snouts in the trough.

 

[Nellies left peg]

There is a simple reason why Dybala might have been negative three weeks ago but positive ten days ago and it's nothing to do with the tests being crap

Yes these footballers think social distancing doesn't apply to them

 

[Saddleworth2]

I am afraid that you do not understand the model - and I mean no insult there, I am just being factual.

The short answer to your initial question is a straight-forward no.

It is for DHSC and the NHS Board to establish such policies and, through their commissioning and procurement functions, set out any such requirement for management of stock levels - e.g. in contractual SLAs.

This all seems to be a widespread lack of understanding of how things work - some of it quite understandable - some of it (certainly not aimed at you) seemingly agenda driven.

Gosh. A misunderstanding between what the Government and Health Boards are responsible for on this thread. Now, if only someone 'in the know' would post a description of the various responsibilities. Wouldn't that be helpful. Oh, sorry they won't because it might get questioned. Carry on in ignorance everyone...

 

[grunge]

I mean he relishes discussing death rates whist at the same time miss labelling them. He was a nurse and he now makes money out of talking about death on Youtube.

He sometimes talks about death rates, it depends on what papers have been released and talked about in medical journals like JAMA / Lancet.

He sometimes miss labels things but its more slip of the tongue stuff he corrects in later videos when its raised.

He has no adverts on his channel so makes no money out of his videos.

 

[Fame Monster]

Interesting analysis from ex head of health statistics at ONS, I’m not gonna say positive as it wouldn’t be appropriate but he’s got the death total quite abit lower than the FT, there is abit of discussion from him why it could


But the whole point of recording excess mortality is because of the struggle about defining what deaths are related to COVID-19. He's actually saying the 25000+ directly attributed to COVID is now around 35,000. Whereas if you use the excess mortality figure, there's no room for debate, it's a fact that 40,000+ people have died more than the 5 year average since the outbreak began.