Keir Starmer

The perfect fumble said:
We're years away from a general election, no opposition sets out their stall this early, even in normal times and these aren't normal times.

Starmer has big problems in the Labour Party and one of the unintended consequences of Covid-19 is they're not front and centre, but eventually Cummings will make them so. Starmer might not be Corbyn but the party that elected Corbyn is still in place. In order to get elected Labour leader Starmer mouthed policy positions not too dissimilar to Rebecca Long-Bailey. Cummings knows that in order to burst the image of a middle of the road, well spoken, moderate politician of authority and gravitas, so appealing to Mail and Torygraph readers, he'll have to bring to the surface all the identity politics baggage Starmer is carrying.

I expect Cummings to bring legislation to Parliament in the not too distant future around these issues, for no other reason than to force Starmer to defend his "extreme" positions. In so doing Cummings will try to get a low key culture war going, after all the right wing media can't run with the likes of donkeygate forever.

The ticking time bomb is the leaked report showing right wing sabotage in the Labour Party, it has the potential to tear the party to pieces. How Starmer deals with this scandal is pivotal to his leadership and the future of the party.

Cummings and his right wing allies in the media see an opportunity.

To sow distrust among the left and reinforce the fear that Starmer is going to sell them out, the media is now prominently featuring the voices of old blairite war horses like Alan Johnson and David Blunkett. The blairites are dead in the party, but by presenting Blunkett and Johnson as relevant voices again, it creates the impression that Starmer is really nothing more than a blairite in left wing clothing.

It's all a bit double edged sword. Cummings and his stooges will portray Starmer as nothing more than a left winger in a good suit to scare the Shires and simultaneously as a right wing blairite clone to scare the left in the party.

I don't envy him.
Click to expand...

I think you overlook the point that oppositions don’t win elections, governments lose them
 
Chris in London said:
I think you overlook the point that oppositions don’t win elections, governments lose them
Click to expand...

I'm aware of that.

But this government is only a few months in, there's years to go yet. I despise the Tory party, but they are ruthless, if things go seriously tits up they'll ditch Johnson and wheel in a new leader, fresh and squeaky clean, lessons learned, waffle dither and fudge, with past fuck ups nailed to the old regime and nothing to do with them.

Don't be so quick to dismiss this idea, there are posters in here who see the Cameron and May years as nothing to do with the present lot, it's all clean slate, year zero for the Tories.
 
The perfect fumble said:
I'm aware of that.

But this government is only a few months in, there's years to go yet. I despise the Tory party, but they are ruthless, if things go seriously tits up they'll ditch Johnson and wheel in a new leader, fresh and squeaky clean, lessons learned, waffle dither and fudge, with past fuck ups nailed to the old regime and nothing to do with them.

Don't be so quick to dismiss this idea, there are posters in here who see the Cameron and May years as nothing to do with the present lot, it's all clean slate, year zero for the Tories.
Click to expand...

they may. But they are looking at a different set of circumstances. What you fear is exactly what happened in 1990 when they ditched Thatcher and won again two years later. But unlike then, their majority is not solely dependent on middle class southern seats. Their majority now depends on working class midlands and northern seats that aren’t their natural home and where Brexit won’t compensate for the fact that lots of people will have lost people in care homes who shouldn’t have died.

They should have been beaten last time. So far, at least, the difference is that the opposition suddenly looks competent
 
The perfect fumble said:
We're years away from a general election, no opposition sets out their stall this early, even in normal times and these aren't normal times.

Starmer has big problems in the Labour Party and one of the unintended consequences of Covid-19 is they're not front and centre, but eventually Cummings will make them so. Starmer might not be Corbyn but the party that elected Corbyn is still in place. In order to get elected Labour leader Starmer mouthed policy positions not too dissimilar to Rebecca Long-Bailey. Cummings knows that in order to burst the image of a middle of the road, well spoken, moderate politician of authority and gravitas, so appealing to Mail and Torygraph readers, he'll have to bring to the surface all the identity politics baggage Starmer is carrying.

I expect Cummings to bring legislation to Parliament in the not too distant future around these issues, for no other reason than to force Starmer to defend his "extreme" positions. In so doing Cummings will try to get a low key culture war going, after all the right wing media can't run with the likes of donkeygate forever.

The ticking time bomb is the leaked report showing right wing sabotage in the Labour Party, it has the potential to tear the party to pieces. How Starmer deals with this scandal is pivotal to his leadership and the future of the party.

Cummings and his right wing allies in the media see an opportunity.

To sow distrust among the left and reinforce the fear that Starmer is going to sell them out, the media is now prominently featuring the voices of old blairite war horses like Alan Johnson and David Blunkett. The blairites are dead in the party, but by presenting Blunkett and Johnson as relevant voices again, it creates the impression that Starmer is really nothing more than a blairite in left wing clothing.

It's all a bit double edged sword. Cummings and his stooges will portray Starmer as nothing more than a left winger in a good suit to scare the Shires and simultaneously as a right wing blairite clone to scare the left in the party.

I don't envy him.
Click to expand...
Voices like Alan Johnson and David Blunkett were only dead in the party because the leadership chose to completely sideline voices more moderate than their own.

It's good to remember just how unpopular Corbynite views are within the actual Parliamentary party. Corybn lost a vote of no confidence 172–40.

While plenty of Momentum members and new members who paid their £3 or whatever to be part of the Corbyn fan club might have agreed with his extreme views, the MP's and wider electorate clearly didn't share those views.

It's great that political heavyweights like Alan Johnson are no longer being sidelined and thankfully old Corbynite war horses like McDonnell will be pushed back to their rightful place on the fringes of politics.
 
Chris in London said:
they may. But they are looking at a different set of circumstances. What you fear is exactly what happened in 1990 when they ditched Thatcher and won again two years later. But unlike then, their majority is not solely dependent on middle class southern seats. Their majority now depends on working class midlands and northern seats that aren’t their natural home and where Brexit won’t compensate for the fact that lots of people will have lost people in care homes who shouldn’t have died.

They should have been beaten last time. So far, at least, the difference is that the opposition suddenly looks competent
Click to expand...

I think you and I do not disagree too much on this.

But the election is not in the here and now.

Four and a half years is a long time in politics and while the northern and midland seats are welcome, they fall in to the might be useful rather than the must have category for the Tories.

I agree things look bad for the Tories right now and good for Starmer, but two good PM question time's do not an alternative government make, and inept as they clearly are, the Tories are actually in power, with powerful allies, a stonking majority and time on their side.

Believe me I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.
 
Last edited:
Shaelumstash said:
Voices like Alan Johnson and David Blunkett were only dead in the party because the leadership chose to completely sideline voices more moderate than their own.

It's good to remember just how unpopular Corbynite views are within the actual Parliamentary party. Corybn lost a vote of no confidence 172–40.

While plenty of Momentum members and new members who paid their £3 or whatever to be part of the Corbyn fan club might have agreed with his extreme views, the MP's and wider electorate clearly didn't share those views.

It's great that political heavyweights like Alan Johnson are no longer being sidelined and thankfully old Corbynite war horses like McDonnell will be pushed back to their rightful place on the fringes of politics.
Click to expand...

You do know this stream of consciousness did not address a single point in my post.

Still, if it made you feel better.
 
The perfect fumble said:
You do know this stream of consciousness did not address a single point in my post.

Still, if it made you feel better.
Click to expand...

won't be popular but I'll be happy if Cummings sets up Starmer as you suggest, particularly (although the angry mob will lynch me for daring to go against their ideology) if protective legislation was passed, particularly supporting the precedence of biological sex over gender and the recognition, let's say, that pronouns relate to that rather than this current faux interpretation that they are a product of self identification.
 
BJL_City said:
won't be popular but I'll be happy if Cummings sets up Starmer as you suggest, particularly (although the angry mob will lynch me for daring to go against their ideology) if protective legislation was passed, particularly supporting the precedence of biological sex over gender and the recognition, let's say, that pronouns relate to that rather than this current faux interpretation that they are a product of self identification.
Click to expand...

Cummings might well use issues around the gender recognition act as a stick to beat Starmer, I would, it's ideal. It would appeal to the Tories natural support, but the big plus for the Conservatives is that Cummings could cast Starmer as a closet Islington loony lefty, divorced from the day to day trials and tribulations of working class people.
 
Last edited:
The perfect fumble said:
You do know this stream of consciousness did not address a single point in my post.

Still, if it made you feel better.
Click to expand...
It specifically addressed this 'jerking in to your own mouth' fantasy "The blairites are dead in the party, but by presenting Blunkett and Johnson as relevant voices again, it creates the impression that Starmer is really nothing more than a blairite in left wing clothing."

The "Blairites" are not "dead". They'd been sidelined by the far-left cult that infiltrated the party.

But their views actually represented majority of the parliamentary party, and much more of the electorate than Jezza.

Thankfully the extreme left are now "dead in the party" so hopefully, Labour have a chance once again to rid the country of this increasingly disasterous Tory party.
 
Shaelumstash said:
It's good to remember just how unpopular Corbynite views are within the actual Parliamentary party. Corybn lost a vote of no confidence 172–40.
Click to expand...

I think even the 40 doesn't fully reflect the level of support he had - many of those 40 probably just thought that the move against him was a bad idea (even though they knew Corbyn was a terrible leader) and some thought it might help them career wise to be in that group.

A more valid figure is the 36 who nominated him (15% of the party).
 
Gaudion M said:
I think even the 40 doesn't fully reflect the level of support he had - many of those 40 probably just thought that the move against him was a bad idea (even though they knew Corbyn was a terrible leader) and some thought it might help them career wise to be in that group.

A more valid figure is the 36 who nominated him (15% of the party).
Click to expand...
But..but..but... the membership increased!! ;-)
 
Shaelumstash said:
It specifically addressed this 'jerking in to your own mouth' fantasy "The blairites are dead in the party, but by presenting Blunkett and Johnson as relevant voices again, it creates the impression that Starmer is really nothing more than a blairite in left wing clothing."

The "Blairites" are not "dead". They'd been sidelined by the far-left cult that infiltrated the party.

But their views actually represented majority of the parliamentary party, and much more of the electorate than Jezza.

Thankfully the extreme left are now "dead in the party" so hopefully, Labour have a chance once again to rid the country of this increasingly disasterous Tory party.
Click to expand...

Stop babbling on about moderates when you clearly don't have a clue.

Where to begin?

On the election of Ed Miliband in 2010 Neil Kinnock celebrated saying he'd got his party back. How could this be?

Because Kinnock is not a blairite, he's from the social democratic wing of the party, what a previous generation called moderates and with some justification. What cannot be justified is to call the blairites moderates, they're not in the middle of anything, their socially liberal, economically conservative ideology is not rooted in the party, it's a completely different animal. Blair's third way politics was as an aberration to the Labour Party, it was a rejection of the party's origins and beliefs and this was quite deliberate. The third wayers believed the problem with the Labour party was the party itself, it had to be destroyed to be saved, hence New Labour.

And hence Kinnock declaring he'd got his party back when he celebrated Miliband's election.

The blairites are dead, New Labour is dead, the Third Way is dead, regardless of the blairite hangers on in Westminster. Whatever Starmer is he's not a third wayer, in fact, if what he said during the hustings to be leader are to be believed, he's to the left of Miliband.

Live with it, don't live with it, but do a bit of research before you blurt out complete bollocks.

Oh, as for this idiocy....
The "Blairites" are not "dead". They'd been sidelined by the far-left cult that infiltrated the party.
Click to expand...

Jesus, Mary and Joseph! You might not like Corbyn, you might not like the people who supported him, but they have deep roots in the party, they've always been there.

And whatever you think of Corbyn, he has a great deal more in common with Keir Hardie than Blair does.

Hardie would have seen Blair for what he is.
 
Last edited:
The perfect fumble said:
Stop babbling on about moderates when you clearly don't have a clue.

Where to begin?

On the election of Ed Miliband in 2010 Neil Kinnock celebrated saying he'd got his party back. How could this be?

Because Kinnock is not a blairite, he's from the social democratic wing of the party, what a previous generation called moderates and with some justification. What cannot be justified is to call the blairites moderates, they're not in the middle of anything, their socially liberal, economically conservative ideology is not rooted in the party, it's a completely different animal. Blair's third way politics was as an aberration to the Labour Party, it was a rejection of the party's origins and beliefs and this was quite deliberate. The third wayers believed the problem with the Labour party was the party itself, it had to be destroyed to be saved, hence New Labour.

And hence Kinnock declaring he'd got his party back when he celebrated Miliband's election.

The blairites are dead, New Labour is dead, the Third Way is dead, regardless of the blairite hangers on in Westminster. Whatever Starmer is he's not a third wayer, in fact, if what he said during the hustings to be leader are to be believed, he's to the left of Miliband.

Live with it, don't live with it, but do a bit of research before you blurt out complete bollocks.

Oh, as for this idiocy....


Jesus, Mary and Joseph! You might not like Corbyn, you might not like the people who supported him, but they have deep roots in the party, they've always been there.

And whatever you think of Corbyn, he has a great deal more in common with Keir Hardie than Blair does.

Hardie would have seen Blair for what he is.
Click to expand...
Honestly you sound like a 1980s Smiths fan in an Army and Navy jacket harping on about the "Proletariat".

It's over.

Blair is the only Labour politician born in the last 100 years who's won a General Election. And he won 3 of them. With landslides.

Your idealistic view of what Labour "is" just sounds absurd and ridiculous to the vast majority of the country. It's akin to saying "let's turn the internet off". It's not happening mate.

Irrespective of what Labour "was" or what you think it "should be", if it's going to be successful, if it's going to win elections and keep the Tories out, it's going to have to appeal to a broad demographic outside of the cult.

Third Way politics may not appeal to your Student Union ideals, but if you want a properly funded NHS and you want a properly funded state eduction, it's the best chance we've got.

People don't want state owned and state controlled broadband, no matter how good an idea you or Jezza think it is. Let it go.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Honestly you sound like a 1980s Smiths fan in an Army and Navy jacket harping on about the "Proletariat".

It's over.

Blair is the only Labour politician born in the last 100 years who's won a General Election. And he won 3 of them. With landslides.

Your idealistic view of what Labour "is" just sounds absurd and ridiculous to the vast majority of the country. It's akin to saying "let's turn the internet off". It's not happening mate.

Irrespective of what Labour "was" or what you think it "should be", if it's going to be successful, if it's going to win elections and keep the Tories out, it's going to have to appeal to a broad demographic outside of the cult.

Third Way politics may not appeal to your Student Union ideals, but if you want a properly funded NHS and you want a properly funded state eduction, it's the best chance we've got.

People don't want state owned and state controlled broadband, no matter how good an idea you or Jezza think it is. Let it go.
Click to expand...

True knowledge consists in knowing things.
 
The perfect fumble said:
I'm aware of that.

But this government is only a few months in, there's years to go yet. I despise the Tory party, but they are ruthless, if things go seriously tits up they'll ditch Johnson and wheel in a new leader, fresh and squeaky clean, lessons learned, waffle dither and fudge, with past fuck ups nailed to the old regime and nothing to do with them.

Don't be so quick to dismiss this idea, there are posters in here who see the Cameron and May years as nothing to do with the present lot, it's all clean slate, year zero for the Tories.
Click to expand...
A process first perfected when they ditched Thatcher and then made a virtue of abolishing the Poll Tax.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top